Classic mag, velocity problems

[Dayn]

Hi All,
When I shoot my mag the first shot's velocity is always quite high, and then after that the velocity drops off and tends to have a range of about 100 fps. So, let's say the first shot is ~320 then the subsequent shots will be between ~180 and ~280, with a few dropping below 180 (can be less than 100 fps). The reg seat was a little dirty when I took a look at it, so I cleaned it off, but still have the problem. I intend to replace it, but need to order a parts kit and thought I'd check to see if there's anything else I should be ordering as well. The spring pack looks like it has a bit of grit in it, and the grease looks to be quite gummy. Should I be cleaning this out and re-greasing it? If so, what's the best way to clean it? The regulator piston seems to be in decent shape, not dirty or anything. One thing I did notice was that the regulator spring doesn't want to come out with the pin. In fact in seems to be stuck in there pretty well, I couldn't get it out (granted I didn't try too hard). Is this alright? In the video the spring and pin seemed to come out as one piece. Is there anything else I should be looking at? Any other information that might be helpful for diagnosing this problem? Thanks

[Coralis]

From what you are describing it sound like its time to disassemble your valve and clean it out and replace the orings and relube everything . The grease on the spring pack is mainly to prevent it from getting rusty a thin coat of white lithium grease or any other grease made for paintball guns will work.

[Spider-TW]

Yes, if the spring pack is gummy (as opposed to goopy), that is a good sign that it is time to clean out the reg. The piston is probably sticking. When you take it out, clean the oring groove and the inside walls of the reg and the rest of the piston. Leave the safety relief screw in the back of the piston alone. Use alcohol if the metal doesn't want to come clean.

If you have some Dow 33, it's good for the whole back end (reg). My next choice would be automotive wheel bearing grease or some synthetic grease other than the 33. Like Coralis said, it's for rust protection, but it does need to be compatible with the piston seals. It's hard to be generic with non-synthetic greases because of the different additives that get put in lithium based greases and the weird varieties that AO members have access to.

Lube the piston oring with something you trust and put it in the clean reg body. Then drop the coated spring pack in.

There's not much behind the pin spring, but it comes out (and goes in) more easily if you twist it in the same direction that the spring is wound (clockwise iirc).

[Dayn]

The valve spring is supposed to come out easily, right? Any suggestions on how I get it unstuck, when I take everything apart for cleaning, without destroying it? Thanks

[Coralis]

wd 40 will take it out ... just make sure you clean it out and replace the any orings that sprayed with the wd 40 . On a side note you push the regulator piston out with a small allen wrench

[Dayn]

Thanks for the speedy replies, hopefully a good cleaning will cure all that ails it.

[Spider-TW]

That should help a lot. "Gummy" is always a bad in any mechanism that is supposed to move.

[ThePixelGuru]

My guess is that you're experiencing regulator creep, which is when the reg seat gets dirty/worn/cut/whatever. The reg will let in only up to a certain PSI, then stop; when your reg seat is bad, it only slows down and air keeps leaking in to the chamber leading to those hot shots. If you shoot your 'mag, then let it sit for a few and shoot again, do you get another hot shot? If so, replacing your reg seat should solve the problem.

[Dayn]

My guess is that you're experiencing regulator creep, which is when the reg seat gets dirty/worn/cut/whatever. The reg will let in only up to a certain PSI, then stop; when your reg seat is bad, it only slows down and air keeps leaking in to the chamber leading to those hot shots. If you shoot your 'mag, then let it sit for a few and shoot again, do you get another hot shot? If so, replacing your reg seat should solve the problem.

The trouble is I don't actually know if the shot is hot, this is my first mag and I've only had it a few weeks. I don't know quite where the velocity adjuster should be set yet. I could just have the velocity set really high and not know it. So the first shot could be more or less at the right velocity and all the subsequent shots are low. That said I do find that if I let it sit for a bit the velocity is high again. (i.e. if the first shot I take is 320 and I let the gun sit for awhile the next shot i take will be ~320).

[Spider-TW]

The trouble is I don't actually know if the shot is hot, this is my first mag and I've only had it a few weeks. I don't know quite where the velocity adjuster should be set yet. I could just have the velocity set really high and not know it. So the first shot could be more or less at the right velocity and all the subsequent shots are low. That said I do find that if I let it sit for a bit the velocity is high again. (i.e. if the first shot I take is 320 and I let the gun sit for awhile the next shot i take will be ~320).

It is hard to tell where your velocity should be, and Pix is right; it could be set low and creeping up. I was thinking you had checked and cleaned your reg seat, but if it is old and hard (brownish colored) it may not matter if it is clean or not. If your reg seat is not wider on the bottom than the top, you can try flipping it over. If you got the mag used and the orings look a little brown and hard, it will need a kit in it pretty soon if you play with it much.

I think the number of mags sold by people that keep them up is pretty low compared to those that don't do any maintenance or have had them sitting in the garage or attic for years. A rebuild kit should smooth it out, especially if you clean out the valve as you go. You can get a kit from airgundesignsusa.com or cheaper at themagsmith.com and occasionally at some of the bigger paintball web sites.

I used to keep a spare one around, but the orings in it got old (and dry) at about the same time as the ones I put in the marker.

[athomas]

A good cleaning will do your mag good.

The regulator seat oring should definately be replaced if it is not new and you had the valve apart. A poor seal will cause air to leak into the front chamber causing hot first shots. An old stiff oring will also cause fluctuations in velocity.

[Dayn]

It is hard to tell where your velocity should be, and Pix is right; it could be set low and creeping up. I was thinking you had checked and cleaned your reg seat, but if it is old and hard (brownish colored) it may not matter if it is clean or not. If your reg seat is not wider on the bottom than the top, you can try flipping it over. If you got the mag used and the orings look a little brown and hard, it will need a kit in it pretty soon if you play with it much.

I think the number of mags sold by people that keep them up is pretty low compared to those that don't do any maintenance or have had them sitting in the garage or attic for years. A rebuild kit should smooth it out, especially if you clean out the valve as you go. You can get a kit from airgundesignsusa.com or cheaper at themagsmith.com and occasionally at some of the bigger paintball web sites.

I used to keep a spare one around, but the orings in it got old (and dry) at about the same time as the ones I put in the marker.

Not sure how hard or soft the reg seat is supposed to be, but I don't think it's discoloured. It's a very light yellow colour. One side of it is slightly wider than the other (one side it falls out easy, the other side not quite so easy.. but it can still fall out). When I first opened up the valve that whole section was covered with a fine black dust, so I wiped it all off hoping that would do the trick... but perhaps it didn't. I've got a parts kit on order, so when it gets here I figure I'll replace everything that's replaceable.

I'm pretty sure that this one had been sitting in a closet for awhile. On top of the problems I've told you about here when I got it the macroline fittings were leaking and there was dried paint in a lot of it's nooks and cranies. Also (and maybe I should have mentioned this earlier, since it might be part of the problem) the bolt spring is rather rusty.

[Spider-TW]

The kit comes with a spring, so that will be good.

Is it a level 10 or level 7 bolt (or older)? The center piece of the bolt that goes down the power tube on a level 10 has a hole in the center of it. It would be unusual for an old mag in that condition to have a level 10 bolt.

Sometimes a good coating of synthetic grease will get your seals working for a while. That black dust is from dirty gas. I've had leaks at least half of the days I've played off of a dirty compressor. If it was running on HPA it may be carbon from a compressor sucking in its own exhaust. There is nothing that escapes a gas compressor (air or CO2) that you want to leave in your mag anyway, so use alcohol and oil to clean it out before you put your new seals in.

Flitz metal polish will remove any rust spots you have.

Don't worry though, a seal kit is about all a mag ever needs, even after more than 12 years in storage. People find all sorts of sand and mud inside valves and some ugly rust on the bolts from the spring, but it's very rare that they won't seal up again.

You can flush out the macro line fittings and oil them to see if they will cooperate.

[Dayn]

The kit comes with a spring, so that will be good.

Is it a level 10 or level 7 bolt (or older)? The center piece of the bolt that goes down the power tube on a level 10 has a hole in the center of it. It would be unusual for an old mag in that condition to have a level 10 bolt.

Sometimes a good coating of synthetic grease will get your seals working for a while. That black dust is from dirty gas. I've had leaks at least half of the days I've played off of a dirty compressor. If it was running on HPA it may be carbon from a compressor sucking in its own exhaust. There is nothing that escapes a gas compressor (air or CO2) that you want to leave in your mag anyway, so use alcohol and oil to clean it out before you put your new seals in.

Flitz metal polish will remove any rust spots you have.

Don't worry though, a seal kit is about all a mag ever needs, even after more than 12 years in storage. People find all sorts of sand and mud inside valves and some ugly rust on the bolts from the spring, but it's very rare that they won't seal up again.

You can flush out the macro line fittings and oil them to see if they will cooperate.

I believe it's a level 7 foamie-less bolt and I think the gun's only been run on CO2. As for the macroline fittings they're not really worth salvaging, they've been stripped almost round (had to use vice grips to take them out), I've since replaced them with some steel braided hose, so that part at least is no longer a problem.

[Dayn]

I just got my parts kit, and took everything apart to clean it all, but I still can't get the regulator valve spring out. I've tried twisting it in the direction that it is wound, and I've tried wd-40 but it still won't budge... anyone have any ideas why this might be happening and what I need to do to get it out? Thanks