How a Retro/X valve works?

[lidocaine]

Does anyone know where I can find an article or a site or something where I can learn how the retro/X valve works? I couldnt find much in the search feature, and there is non sticky.

,Lido

[secretweaponevan]

Does anyone know where I can find an article or a site or something where I can learn how the retro/X valve works? I couldnt find much in the search feature, and there is non sticky.

,Lido

This: http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/anim...automag_rt.wmv
combined with PV=nRT is all you really need to know.

Just keep watching it over and over again.
Also, you can right click and zoom in.

[questionful]

It is my opinion that this the the BEST animation, by FAR, to learn how the RT works:

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/rtemag2_6fps.gif

slightly slower version:

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/rtemag2_15fps.gif

PREREQUISITES:

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/reg_fp1.gif

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/automag1.gif

This is how the RT valve works:
Air goes in through the side input. at full pressure.
When the marker is fired, the valve pin poppet opens up and air goes further into the valve and hits the top of the on/off, at full pressure.
The on/off opens and air rushes into two places at the same time: 1) it fills the dump chamber, and 2) goes through the valve pin into the regulator chamber, where it pushes on the regulator piston, against the springs.
When the pressure in the dump chamber and regulator chambers is strong enough, it pushes the reg piston back, which lets the valve pin poppet close. All the air from the valve pin poppet to the powertube O-ring to the regulator piston is now at regulated pressure (somewhere around 500psi). When the trigger is pulled. . .
The on/off is closed. the on/off pin has (regulated pressure)X(area of on/off pin bottom) pressure pushing on it.
The dump chamber AND regulator chamber are emptied to practically 0 psi.
This eliminates the force that used to be pushing on the regulator piston, so the springs push the regulator piston forward, which in turn pushes the valve pin poppet open.
This causes full pressure to rush in and hit the top of the on/off pin. the on/off pin now has (full pressure)X(area of on/off pin top) pressure pushing on it. This change in pressure on the on/off pin is what causes the "RT effect". What was once enough force to pull the trigger is now NOT enough, and the trigger returns.

Hope that explains everything. Stare at the animation until you understand! You will get it eventually! Good luck.

[jade_monkey07]

i was trying to explain this to my friend the other day and he wasnt quite getting it. ill show him this stuff, and questionful's explanation was perfect

[lidocaine]

thanks a ton guys, questionful thanks especially for the great explanation. When I get home from work today ill check it out.

[lidocaine]

questionful, few questions about the diagram if you could just tell me where these parts are please.

1. on/off...on/off pin?
2.valve pin poppet?/valve pin?
3.regulator piston?
4.dump chamber?
5.regulator chamber?
6.powertube o ring?

So the purple dots are o rings? What are the big red dots in the rear and the tiny dot in the middle called?

Thanks, im questionful pun intended

edit:how is the gas coming into the gun? The HP supply above the gun doesnt look like its connecting to anything.Also what do the changes in the gas colors represent?

[MagModderMatt]

The name for all your parts are on this site

There is an "Exploded" view of the RT with names/labels for all the parts of the whole valve
Click here, then go to Retro Valve Exploaded view (there it gives pics w/ names of all parts
Again go down in the link and click on "Retro Valve Exploded View" it will open a PDF file with

everything u are asking about with labels for all the parts w/pictures :)
Hope this helps you figure the RT valve out.

Hey Questionfull, How is your warp project comin along? if you are having trouble getting the tube around the trigger with enough clearence I have a classic RT Benchmark double trigger grip frame made for the RT. I'll sell it to you for pretty cheap, it just doesn't have any saftey. PM me if you are interested. I can give you pics and tell you price. I was using it but I bought an Spyder grip and fit it to my "Banjo rt" (tunaman did on/off ULT milling) so now I can use the ult with our valve! he does the work for $31 with shipping!! only person who will do the work still NO ONE ELSE would, I asked EVERYONE , finaly tunaman to the rescue!! (good luck with the warp feed mod) I saw pics of it on
automags.net I believe.. I love the old RT's yours is very clean (needs Benchmark dbl trigger frame black )

questionful, few questions about the diagram if you could just tell me where these parts are please.

1. on/off...on/off pin?
2.valve pin poppet?/valve pin?
3.regulator piston?
4.dump chamber?
5.regulator chamber?
6.powertube o ring?

So the purple dots are o rings? What are the big red dots in the rear and the tiny dot in the middle called?

Thanks, im questionful pun intended

edit:how is the gas coming into the gun? The HP supply above the gun doesnt look like its connecting to anything.Also what do the changes in the gas colors represent?

[athomas]

I'll add a bit to the above description of how a retro valve works.

Air goes in through the side input of the valve at full pressure and hits the top of the on/off at full pressure. With the trigger in the released position, the on/off opens and air rushes into three places at the same time: 1) it fills the dump chamber, 2) pushes against the regulator valve pin assembly and 3) goes through the valve pin into the regulator chamber, where it pushes on the regulator piston assembly against the springs. When the pressure in the dump chamber creates a force stronger than the spring pack force behind the regulator piston assembly, it pushes the reg valve pin against the regulator seat oring and shuts off the air supply to the chamber to prevent further pressure increases. The air that passes through the regulator valve pin and pushes against the regulator piston assembly is held in place and is there to ensure no over pressurization of the valve occurs. If the pressure in the chamber goes too high, the regulator piston assembly releases the excess pressure out the back of the mag velocity adjustor.

All the air from the valve pin poppet to the powertube O-ring to the regulator piston is now at regulated pressure (somewhere around 350psi for the level 7 bolt, and around 500 psi for the level 10 bolt). When the trigger is pulled, the on/off closes slightly before the sear is released. This timing is critical in the mag and is pretimed based on the shape of the sear assembly. This cannot be altered much but can be slightly adjusted using spacers in the on-off (ULT) or by using a different length of on-off pin. When the chamber is fully charged, the on/off pin has (regulated pressure)X(area of on/off pin bottom) pressure pushing on it. For the standard retro on-off pin, this translates into about 4 lbs of trigger force.

As the sear releases the bolt, the pressure in the chamber pushes it forward until the bolt piston reaches the front of the powertube and dumps the air into the barrel. The dump chamber AND regulator chamber are emptied to about 50 psi (level 7), 100psi (level 10). The reduced pressure can no longer hold the bolt forward against the bolt spring and the bolt returns to its reset postion against the front of the valve. The lack of high pressure in the chamber eliminates the force that used to be pushing the regulator valve pin against the regulator piston, so the valve pin assembly pulls away from the regulator seat oring and releases full input pressure against the top of the on-off pin. The on/off pin now has (full input pressure)X(area of on/off pin top) pressure pushing on it. the initial impulse force on the on-off top is around 16lbs. This higher pressure on the on/off pin is what causes the "RT effect". What was once enough force to lightly pull the trigger is now NOT enough, and the trigger returns with much more force than was originally felt when the trigger was pulled.

As the trigger is released the on-off pin is pushed down against the sear assembly. The sear catches the bolt slightly before the on-off pin opens to refill the front chamber and the process repeats itself.

[lidocaine]

where are the parts I listed on my post before this one IN THE DIAGRAM?
It's one thing knowing what the part looks like in life, but another looking at a rogue animated diagram of them.

,Lidocaine

[questionful]

I tried to cram all the answers to your questions in an image. :)

athomas, good elaboration, there's just one thing that I'm not sure about. I think the valve pin is always in contact with the reg piston due to the disc springs that go around it.

[lidocaine]

Questionsful, Thanks so much helped a ton!



edit: so the air is supposed to be connected to the cyan? it comes in and moves throughout the gun through that tube that its close to, right?

edit2: how does changing the velocity higher/lower work?

Lido

[questionful]

Questionful, I love you in a non-gay sort of way.

Thanks!!

edit: so the air is supposed to be connected to the cyan? it comes in and moves throughout the gun through that tube that its close to, right?

edit2: how does changing the velocity higher/lower work?

Yeah, the purple air (full pressure) turns into cyan air (regulated pressure) when the regulator poppet opens. It goes in through the side, then goes to the on/off. Even though it is right next to the reg chamber, it doesn't go in there until after it goes around through the on/off and valve pin. That bit is kinda confusing in two dimensions. I hope that didn't make it more confusing.

Changing the velocity: When you turn the velocity nut clockwise, it tightens the springs. As you know, springs are harder to compress the more you compress them. So tightening them makes it so more force is required to compress them enough to close the reg poppet. So more psi in the reg chamber will be required to push on the reg piston enough to close the poppet. So you end up with more psi in the reg chamber and dump chamber, which results in higher velocity.
The compression of the springs is proportional to how much pressure is in the reg chamber. If you want a certain psi in the reg chamber, you have to adjust the springs so the poppet closes at the point of compression that corresponds with the psi you want. The poppet is always going to close at the same point of the reg piston's travel. So to adjust the spring tension at that point in the reg pistons travel, you move the velocity nut forward or backward. Again, I think that made it even more confusing? I'm kinda bad at explaining stuff how I see it in my head.

Questionful, I love you in a non-gay sort of way.

Thanks!!

Yeah. . . kinda like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0

But less gay.
You're welcome!

[lidocaine]

1.questionful, what do you mean by the valve poppet "opens up"?I can barely see the thing moving
2.So the air is supposed to be connected to the cyan then, right?
3.Is the beefy part of the on off assembly hollow so air passes through it when the trigger is pulled and it moves downward?
4.the regulator chamber is the tiny space right in front of the regulator piston and behind the valve poppet pin?

my head is spinning

[athomas]

1.questionful, what do you mean by the valve poppet "opens up"?I can barely see the thing moving

As the air pressure in the chamber is reduced because the air leaves the front of the valve, the regulator spring pack pushes the regulator valve pin assembly (valve poppet) away from the regulator seat oring to allow high pressure air to enter into the passage leading to the top of the on-off pin.

2.So the air is supposed to be connected to the cyan then, right?

No, the air input is the purple and it actually connects to the purple in the center past the cyan. The purple air passage actually is connected in the side of the valve at a 90 degree angle to the cyan air passage. it is just hard to show that on a diagram.

3.Is the beefy part of the on off assembly hollow so air passes through it when the trigger is pulled and it moves downward?

The bottom section of the on-off acts like a plug with a hole to allow the pin to move. The top section of the on-off is concave around it perimeter and has 4 holes leading into the center where the on-off pin passes up through it. The 4 holes allow air to pass from the on-off to the front chamber when the on-off pin goes down when the trigger is released. The concave perimeter aids in this air flow, plus also allows the same air to pass up through the regulator valve pin assembly and put pressure on the regulator piston assembly to shut the air supply off when the pressure reaches the cutoff value set by the user. This cutoff value is the amount of pressure required to propel the ball at the desired velocity.

4.the regulator chamber is the tiny space right in front of the regulator piston and behind the valve poppet pin?

my head is spinning

Yes

[lidocaine]

I dont understand what the valve pin poppet is doing, It looks like a hollow tube with little notches for springs to push it against the reg piston.What exactly is its job. Does the on/off pin have a hole in the middle of it? Because when its pulled, the beefy part goes down a bit, then air zooms past what seems like a sealed path into the dump chamber.

edit: how is air pushing the poppet valve assembly when the trigger is in the released position? I cant see anything for air to grab on to.