Funky Problem

[Thourne]

I've got an X-Valve here that's doing some crazy things. I think the problem is with the Level 10, but I'd like some input from fellow mag lovers (and mechanics) before I do much more with it. I don't know which carrier the level 10 has but it's running the red spring with 2 shims.

Here's what it's doing. It seem to shoot fine, but occasionally chuffs. Upon further inspection it seems that a slow trigger pull is what will make it chuff about 80% of the time. It also has very erratic velocity. I got this in a trade so I don't know the condition of everything inside, but any opinions on what I should do here to make it work.

I've also tried putting the ULT in and it just makes the problems worse - I'm running just the stock RT on/off right now.

Thanks ahead of time for any replies/solutions.

MH.

[dark blade]

actually im 80% sure nothing is wrong with the valve and its normal

IIRC the x-valves consistancy plays in part to the trigger pull and if you do not pull it consistantly it will not shoot consistantly (could be wrong though)

i also think i remember reading somewhere that the chuffing is normal too when you pull it slowely... imagine taking something that needs to be sealed quickly (the top of your on/off) and something that needs to be released quickly (the air in the dump chamber) and just mediating them to make them both in the middle speedwise... thats not gonna work out too well

the dump chamber would slowely become unplugged (causing what would appear to be a leak) while the pin slowely closes the top of the on/off which blocks more air from enterting the chamber... this then would make it chuff due to not enough air



but like i said... i could either be hitting the nail nearly 100% on this one or missing it 100% and metaphorically whacking my thumb (which really hurts by the way)






as a test get a chrono and instead of making slow "sniper" pulls make quick pulls as though you were using a pistol (quick motions on the trigger not slow swat snniper pulls) and let me know if the chuffing happens... and if not then AWESOME!... also let us know if the consistancy gets better if you shoot with a consistant pull because the pull can make all the difference in the world

[Thourne]

I'm almost 100% sure there's a problem. Mainly because I have another RT style valve (Emag) setup the exact same way (both with lvl 10 and intelliframes) and I can put them side by side and the X-valve screws up and the Emag does great. Also the X valve will do the same thing as when I use a slow pull and it chuffs randomly throughout a set of short quick trigger pulls. But it does it the worst when it's a slow pull. Over the chrono it's erratic no matter if you're pulling short quick pulls or slow pulls. The chuffing just happens consistently with a slow pull.

I can do a slow pull BTW with the Emag valve and it doesn't chuff or do anything weird.

Any other ideas?

Thanks,

MH.

[dark blade]

well... as i suggest in all other tech help threads that i post in... i suggest a complete tear down of everything and a complete tuning of everything. BUT before you do this i suggest taking the valve out of the e-mag and putting it in the other marker and seeing if it is any better. if the consistancy is better than i would move on to tearing it down and cleaning it. then if you have to do that i would follow these steps in this order.
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1.) take apart the powertube tip and dump chamber (if its not loctited) and check for debris/clean and lube all o-rings, washers, and shims

2.) take out the on/off and clean it as well as the two o-rings at the top (take them out and check for damage and then oil them)

3.) take the back half of the regulator off and check all the o-rings and pins here (same thing) look for debris and oil

4.) move to the very back and unscrew the velocity adjuster all the way out so that you get the two springs. completely remove all oil and grease and clean out the chamber... then lube them lightly and put them back in
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after all this check the chrono... it should fix all the problems you are having. and if along the way you meet a problem such as a blown o-ring in part two replace and it and check the chrono that way we can figure out what the problem i directly.



if none of this works swap the spring out for the shortest gold one and try again (im 99% sure it will fix the chuffing) but the inconsistancy sounds like a dirty reg issue.

report back and let us know

[Thourne]

Dark Blade, I know that is the standard operation for flushing out problems on any Automag, but I was wondering if anyone had ever had this particular problem and how they fixed it.

I did go through and replace every seal in the gun today group by group (rear, on/off, powertube/level 10) so I'd know where the issue was. First though I thought there might be an issue with the level 10 carrier oring so I went up a size (I think that makes sense because the chuffing really seemed like a slight case of bolt stick - more on that later). I also put in the regular spring just in case, it had the red spring. That did seem to help a little, but it was still having a few issues. So I took the rear end apart and even though everything looked good I replaced that - no solution. Then I replaced the on/off orings - that seemed to fix the issue of not firing when pulling the trigger slowly or missing with a chuff when rapid firing. I didn't get to shoot very much this way though (read on . . . ).

So I think I've got it all solved and then the bolt sticks into the fired position and won't reseat itself. I'm stunned because I've never had this issue before (ever). It just bents air out unless I pull the trigger (hey at least I know the on/off is working - hehe) So I take it apart and there is excessive friction between the bolt and the powertube. I take it apart further and try to figure out what's causing the problem. I take the level 10 stuff apart and see if that's the issue by putting it on the bolt. There is practically no resistance - so I think those parts aren't to blame. Then I try to put the bolt on the SS powertube piece that holds the level 10 stuff inside, and it will barely fit on there. I know I'd had it apart before and it felt a little sticky, but nothing like that at all. So I can't figure this thing out. One problem right after another. I didn't even make it outside with the chrono because the bolt was now stuck open.

Does anyone know what made the power tube get bigger. This is the 7th mag I've owned, and I've been able to fix and work on all of them with soft parts, but the only thing I can imagine is that I might need to take some steel wool and reduce the OD of the powertube. Or is there something else I should do? Did AGD make these out of Al instead of SS, and it's bent or become out of shape somehow? I'm just really stumped.

Any additional help would be appreciated.

MH.

[athomas]

There should be almost no resistance if you slide the bolt over an empty powertube. The inner diameter of the bolt (not bolt stem) is larger than the outer diameter of the powertube by just a little bit which allows the bolt to travel forward and back freely without air blowing out the back when the gun is fired.

If it is parts in the powertube that are causing the bolt to feel resistance, then you need to determine which part it is. Usually it is the carrier oring and carrier size.

When you mention that the bolt sticks forward, I take it that it just doesn't reset. Or does it actually stick fully forward, ie; fully closing the breach?

[Thourne]

Athomas, when I say it sticks forward I mean that it sticks and there is no room for balls to go into the breech at all. It essentially jams into the forward position, not like what it would do with a carrier being to tight and it having a little stick where pushing it back with a stick squeegee would reset the bolt and make it all peachee again. And I've taken all the powertube components out and try fitting the bolt over the empty powertube and there is so much friction that it usually won't slip on at all.

Any ideas? I've got a friend who's a PTI certified master airsmith. I'm getting it to him sometime soon so he can do some real work to it, but I'm baffled, and would love to hear from people who've dealt with this one before.

[athomas]

Check the alignment of the bolt stem. The bolt stem is press fit and glued into the front part of the bolt. Perhaps this assembly has loosened and is out of alignment. That would cause friction on the side of the powertube. This is very rare but has happened before.

[Thourne]

Thanks for the advice, my buddy said something about checking alignment and used some really fancy terms that I had never heard before, but I don't know how to check the alignment so I'm going to get it to him and let him work his PTI magic on it - haha. But I can't believe I've encountered a problem with one of these and not been able to fix it myself. It only took 8 years to get to that point. But I still say they're the best semi on the planet.

[athomas]

Put the stem into a drill chuck. Spin it. If it wobbles, it is out of alignment.