a new pumpmag extreme innovation?

[dark blade]

sorry about the long read guys, but i think you will all find it worth it :)

i found an awesome website that sells wave springs that i am sure all of you know about already... smalley steel ring co.

there are 2 options that are very close to the dimensions and such of the wave spring that is "stock" to a pump mag...

the C100 - M1 and the C100 - L1

the M1 has a slightly thicker strip of metal used which causes a heavier compression of 18lbs/inch

the L1 has a slightly thinner (obviously) strip of metal used which causes a lighter compression of only 12lbs/inch

my question is this... will the lighter spring work in tha pumpmag? if it will, will it not give a much lighter pump stroke?

the main tension on the pump stroke is that of the wave spring is it not?



also, what happens to be the compression force needed to compress the pumprod spring?... if the spring needs closer to 12lbs than 18lbs then the pump stroke will be lighter AND smoother because there wont be as much of a noticeable difference between the 12lb pump and the 18lb pump spring when the force changes over.

just thought i would play around with some ideas... thats all, also... i thought of one more greta idea (possibly)



smalley wave springs come in 2 designs, the normal wave design and a "shim" design where the two ends have what almost looks like a washer type end where it is completely flat, this supposedly gives a much better dispersion of the weight needed to compress it. My thoughts is that if you used a small bolt spring (in front of the bolt), a lighter wave spring of only 12lb/inch, and a shim shaped end (to disperse weight better).... wont the pump stroke be just that much more amazing ?

also, as far as getting a short bolt spring... you might not need to do this, just get a spring that has a compression force of 10lbs... which would allow the wave spring to overcome it.

lets see what we can do here... pump mags need to keep the throne

[dark blade]

no one has any thoughts on this? there has to be at least 1 person who has a thought on this.


lets see some other brains join with mine to make an uber smooth pull and uber light recock

[Rudz]

Mcmaster carr stocks the springs most of us use, if you do a search I'm sure you can find the actual part number, rainman229 stocks the wavesprings also, I believe he gets them from mcmaster carr.

As it is, the pump stroke on any pump mag is rediculously short and smooth, too light of a wave spring will result in semi auto, because the main spring over powers the wave spring, I have seen this happen on worn springs.

I would try a lighter spring in your pump handle, I replaced mine and it made leaps and bounds of difference, also remember to lube the pump mount post and I go as far as to lube the pump slot also.

[dark blade]

i have a working brand new wave spring... i dont need a new one... what i need is a method of making the recock easier... i know its easy and its smooth but it can still be easier and smoother

i want to try to get to an even numbered 12lb pull and recock.

that would mean i need a 12lb/inch spring in pump handle, a 12lb/inch wave spring and a 10lb/inch main spring

anyone have any ideas where i can find the pump spring and main spring? i can get a wave spring.

lets see some help

[DevilMan]

One thing I don't think you are following DB is this...

The wave spring keeps the bolt from catching the sear. THAT'S ALL IT DOES.

It has NO EFFECT on the pump stroke.

The spring that changes the pump stroke is the one found INSIDE the pump handle. That is the one you have to adjust to adjust the feel of the pump stroke. I can "air pump" my mag because the spring is super light. Mine is set so that if you pull the handle back slowly with the marker pointed up the spring is just strong enough to "push" or "extend" the handle back OUT to the end of it's stroke.

The spring INSIDE of the pump handle though is what determines the stroke.

The Wave Spring merely determines what level of bolt spring you need to use to push the bolt back far enough to seal off the air, but not so far as to latch the bolt to the sear.

DM

Sorry I didn't read your last note before I hit reply to your first one....

What difference does it make what weight any of it is, if it's all cancelled out? I mean if you take 4 away from 4 isn't that the same as 7000 minus 7000????

DM

[dark blade]

Well... sort of. Except there is no equalingof forces... when the bolt is pushed back but not caught there is still the wave spring to overcme... at some point during the pump stroke you will have to overcome this spring to push the bolt back. That means that spring is a deciding factor. So if I get a lighter pump handle spring the stroke would be lighter but the reset will not... it will be a noticable difference in the force needed to reset it.

So it will be essentially easier to pump and reset a 12lb/inch spring if both the wave and pump handle have matching lighter springs

[DevilMan]

Well... sort of. Except there is no equalingof forces... when the bolt is pushed back but not caught there is still the wave spring to overcme... at some point during the pump stroke you will have to overcome this spring to push the bolt back. That means that spring is a deciding factor. So if I get a lighter pump handle spring the stroke would be lighter but the reset will not... it will be a noticable difference in the force needed to reset it.

So it will be essentially easier to pump and reset a 12lb/inch spring if both the wave and pump handle have matching lighter springs

hmmmmmmmmmm.... I see your point better now that I got some rest... Sorry about that late night post.

hmmmm... let me think on this for a bit... I see what you are trying to do, but I'm curious as to what would happen. See if I pump my mag like I pump my cocker it "breaks" I don't know why, but it does. To pump the cocker you just pull it all the way back feeling the compression of the pump handle spring as well as the IVG spring til it stops going back and you let go or let it push back forward. If I do that to the mag it "breaks" it. The mag I simply "flick" the handle back and if it's enough to hit the bolt with the slightest of pressure it cocks it because the bolt only has to go anough 1/16" back to latch. I don't know what exactly pumping it like a cocker does to it, but I know it mucks it up.

Let me ponder this one... Interested to know other folks thoughts...

DM

[dark blade]

im not sure i know what exactly you mean by "pump it like your cockers"

i am kind of confused by this.

can you explain the two different methods you use to pump your mag vs your cockers and what exactly do you mean by "break" the pumpmag

[DevilMan]

im not sure i know what exactly you mean by "pump it like your cockers"

i am kind of confused by this.

can you explain the two different methods you use to pump your mag vs your cockers and what exactly do you mean by "break" the pumpmag

The autococker pumps I've shot you can pull back on the pump and not worry about how hard or fast you do it. It hits the back stop and that's that.

If you jam a pump mag back hard it seems to jack it up where it's not usable. I'm not exactly sure what it does, but I can only guess that it flattens the wave spring enough to make it not want to push the bolt forward enough or something. I'm not sure.

My only thought is it's like tapping lightly on a trigger pin to get it out of the frame or taking that same pin and popping it once really hard and sharp to get it out of the frame. If you tap it lightly it don't move... If you tap the bolt back lightly it barely compresses the wave spring. But if you jam the bolt back it compresses the spring too much and the spring don't regain it's working thickness to act properly.

You can ask Brewtt and Ajnin about this as they know more about pump mags than I do.

And I know I've "broken" a few of theirs...

DM

[dark blade]

ok so heres the deal... i have a "sample" from smalley supposedly coming in... i have 3 springs coming in...

1 - shimmed 18lb/inch
1 - 12lb/inch wave
1 - shimmed 12lb/inch

i also am getting a 12lb/inch compression spring from a hardware store this week which will hopefully be lighter than the jay spring i am using...

i will be doing a test with all of these new parts and see how it works out.

(oh and p.s. i am also getting a 10lb/inch compression spring for the bolt)

lets see how it works out

[PumpMag]

Dark blade,

Please photo document your tests. I'm interested to actually see the diffrent springs you use to do your research and interested to see your results.

will the lighter spring work in tha pumpmag? if it will, will it not give a much lighter pump stroke?

The wave spring is only meant to prevent the bolt from resetting, so that it causes bolt stick which stops your Automag from going semi-auto.

Using lighter, weaker wave springs will probably only cause your Automag to revert to semi-mode not having enough force to overcome the bolt spring.

as far as getting a short bolt spring... you might not need to do this, just get a spring that has a compression force of 10lbs... which would allow the wave spring to overcome it.

That sounds like a good solution. Let us know how it goes.

Anyway, a lighter pump stroke can also be obtained through other means or a combination of methods, such as a lighter spring inside the pump handle, making sure the rod or handle doesn't bind against the body, and properly lubing the moving contact areas of the pump assembly, and milled rail channel.

[dark blade]

got my smalleys sample pack in the mail the other day... the new L1 shim ended wave springs are much much lighter and easier to recock... i am working on finding a 12lb pump spring and a 10lb main spring for the bolt :)

i will keep you guys informed as to what happens

[dark blade]

here is the update

i got in the 12lb/inch wave spring about a week ago and have since gone to home depot to get my main spring.

I got a 1.95lb/inch 2ish inch long spring that i am using as my pump spring.

I cut the spring down to 1.5 inch which puts it at a tad under 3 lbs... seeing as the wave spring is only 1/4" tall that makes its 12 per inch force only a 3lb force total.

So i have a just under 3 lb main pump spring, a 3 lb wave spring, and a 1.25 lb front spring (in front of the handle)

this has effectively made my pump stroke extremely smooth, very light, and completely quiet without the risk of the handle smacking against the front of the rod and wearing away.



to explain my setup better i will use simple words below






I have taken all the springs out of my pump kit and made them all = in force so that there is no click or transition between them. they are all smooth transitions and makes the pump stroke wayyyy softer, lighter, and smoother (and a bit shorter)

what i did was take a spring and put it on the pump rod, put the pump rod in the pump handle and then put the other longer spring on the pump rod inside the handle... that means there is a spring on each side of the handle, in front of it and behind/inside it.

I then took the lighter wave spring and put that in my marker.

To get rid of the wobble i took an o-ring and put it on the pump post BEFORE putting on the oval shaped piece. This holds it all together tightly when screwed in and makes for a wobbleless pump and removes the possibility of it wiggling free.

Then i took the whole pump kit and lubed/greased everything and put it all back together.





and now its amazing!!!!! easily 100x better than any pumpstroke i had before.

and all i have to do now is make/find a front bolt spring that works with this all

[dark blade]

just wanted to add that i can now pump the handle with my pinky and not strain it at all...

also, i can get the specs and a HOW TO on this if anyone is interested.