Save my EPmag!!

**CatoRockwell** · 12-28-2009, 11:01 AM

Not an expert here, but my experience is that ULT's do not work well with E-grips.

**FA22RaptorF22** · 12-28-2009, 11:13 AM

You have to keep your on off assembly to use with your e lowers. The on/off that comes with the ult is the wrong size for the e lower sear from what I understand.

Actually, ok. If you are using the ult as a pneumag...and you have chuffing...

You should bump up a carrier size, or if your bolt sticks when you pinch a ball, add a spacer.

**xero28** · 12-28-2009, 11:29 AM

I just finished my first EP project with an Etek frame/board, so I too am still learning. Now, I'm running mine with a classic valve, so the story might be a little different. I have yet to actually play a game with mine, or even shoot paint through it for that matter, but just dry firing seems to be pretty good. I'll have to check the actual bps over a chrono to see what I'm getting.

I think that you should try to use a standard RT on/off if possible to see if that changes anything. Now, anyone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you will want to dwell to be fairly low so it only opens the noid for a small amount of time since that is all that is really needed to trip the sear. This will give the sear more time to reset in between trigger pulls.

So, in theory it's like this...let's say it takes 1 second to trip the sear (obvious exaggeration, but I like whole numbers) and 1/2 second for it to close. So if you're dwell is 2 seconds, then that's twice as long as is actually needed. Let's say there is a 1 second lapse in between each trigger pull. So the first pull will be at 0 seconds. The noid opens and the sear is pushed for 2 seconds. The second trigger pull is at 1 second, but the noid is still open, so that shot is skipped. The third pull is at two seconds, just as the noid is closing and the sear is returning. So the noid opens up again, but the sear hasn't fully reset since it take 1/2 second to reset. So the piston will hit the sear again before it has fully reset, resulting in a short stroke, resulting in chuffing...I think. So reducing the dwell should help the sear reset quicker before it gets hit again by the piston. That's the way I see. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

**FA22RaptorF22** · 12-28-2009, 12:02 PM

Correct. Short stroking can be observed with an xmodded mag.

When the dwell is set to low, or rof too high, you short stroke.

I would advise the stock on/off and put the frame to default settings with it in semi, and 1 shot at a time. Increase or decrease dwell as necessary till the valve and pinch/retract/and fire well.

**p8ntbal4me** · 12-28-2009, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Hgblues

My first big question is, with the electro setup, is the ULT actually hurting me more than helping?

You need to remove the ULT. If your using a ram thats driven in an EP setup,... you need a stock on/off assembly.

Originally posted by Hgblues

Or is it not making a difference one way or the other.

Its probably not going to kill you to leave it in there,... but your rate of fire and dwell settings are going to suffer in the long run. That and the ULT works on minimal force, where the MPA-3 ram pounds on the sear with 11lbs of force,.... not exactly something you want forcing the ULT over a period of time. Your on/off needs to reset the ram and the ULT sometimes wont do that properly.

Best bet is to take it out.

Originally posted by Hgblues

Next question, how will the dwell setting affect the trigger in regards to "short stroking" or "chuffing".

Dwell settings do not effect the trigger. Its all in the micro switch and the settings (if your relating the electronic parts to your problem and question.

The only thing in the micro switch that can effect the "short stroking" of the marker would be excessive switch bounce. Thats usually due to an error in the settings of the debounce on the board. You should start with the factory defaults of the UTB and work on one register at a time. Before all that,.. you need to make sure that your LPR is functioning properly and is not starving the solenoid.

What solenoid are you using by the way?

Adjust your dwell (increase) until the marker fires. Turn the dwell up a few more ms and fire a long string of shots (no paint). Does the problem go away?

You need to get your valve tuned without the EP stuff first, check your LPR second, and then work from there.

~ P8nt

**Hgblues** · 12-28-2009, 02:53 PM

Great info guys. Most of it makes alot of sense.

I'm gonna take out the ULT then play with the dwell setting and try to get it to close asap to make sure it's not catching the sear trying to return while the noid is still open. I haven't changed the default dwell setting on the Tboard, only the firing modes, so I'll check it out.

As far as which solenoid, my setup is similar to this one by Hilltop. http://www.automags.org/forums/showp...9&postcount=25

It's the little bity white one. I am using a palmers lpr that is mounted onto my cp on off and ran thru the bottom of the grip.

I'll reply back when I get a chance to do some testing without the ult.

**p8ntbal4me** · 12-28-2009, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Hgblues

Great info guys. Most of it makes alot of sense.

I'm gonna take out the ULT then play with the dwell setting and try to get it to close asap to make sure it's not catching the sear trying to return while the noid is still open. I haven't changed the default dwell setting on the Tboard, only the firing modes, so I'll check it out.

As far as which solenoid, my setup is similar to this one by Hilltop. http://www.automags.org/forums/showp...9&postcount=25

It's the little bity white one. I am using a palmers lpr that is mounted onto my cp on off and ran thru the bottom of the grip.

I'll reply back when I get a chance to do some testing without the ult.

Get your manual frame back on the gun,.. and tune the valve that way first.

Once you know for certain the valve functions without the electronics,.. then add those parts on and trouble shoot from there. I know it sucks doing it this way, but believe me,.. you want one less problem with trying to fine tune the board.

~ P8nt

**p8ntbal4me** · 12-28-2009, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Hgblues

As far as which solenoid, my setup is similar to this one by Hilltop. http://www.automags.org/forums/showp...9&postcount=25

Thats an SMC S070 series solenoid,.. make sure you update your first post in the thread so other members looking at the build can comment accordingly and help us out even more.

~ P8nt

**athomas** · 12-29-2009, 09:39 AM

The dwell should be set high enough to account for activation time and full bolt cycle. The sear should be held until after the bolt has returned. If released too soon, the sear will rub on the bolt and the increased friction could cause reset issues and bolt stick causing chuffing. Typical dwell should be around 15ms give or take a few depending on your setup.

**Hgblues** · 12-29-2009, 10:16 AM

Updated the original post with the solenoid.

It looks like the default dwell on my board is at 7.

**p8ntbal4me** · 12-29-2009, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Hgblues

Updated the original post with the solenoid.

It looks like the default dwell on my board is at 7.

Yeah,,. do as athomas suggested and start at 15ms,.. pretty sure thats the factory default on the UTB. I am testing the Ripper frames with 15ms right now and it seems to be working okay.

Im going to force it down some more to get better shots per tank though,....

Try 15ms and see what that does

~ P8nt

**athomas** · 12-29-2009, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by p8ntbal4me

Im going to force it down some more to get better shots per tank though,....

Dwell has no influence on air usage on a mag. Electronic dwell on a mag only holds the sear out of the way so that it doesn't interfere with the bolt cycle.

**Spider-TW** · 12-29-2009, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by p8ntbal4me

Yeah,,. do as athomas suggested and start at 15ms,.. pretty sure thats the factory default on the UTB. I am testing the Ripper frames with 15ms right now and it seems to be working okay.

Im going to force it down some more to get better shots per tank though,....

Try 15ms and see what that does

~ P8nt

After talking to P8nt, reading up on e-mags, and playing with 2k5 timmy's for a while, I set my EP analog circuit dwell for right about 10 ms. It is an SMC070 with over 11,000 rounds through it and still one of my favorite markers.

A 6ms or 7ms dwell in a timmy is right on the edge of reliability, but going above 12ms usually means something is dragging a little. I can't remember if the stock board even goes over 16 ms.

I think the bolt travel (firing cycle) on a mag is around 7 ms, so if you have a little more dwell than what is needed to release the sear it's not a terrible thing. However, you would like to have any extra time for ram bleed off.

Your delay between shots should be about 30ms for an x-valve or 50-60ms for a classic valve, to allow the regulator to recharge.

**p8ntbal4me** · 12-29-2009, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by athomas

Dwell has no influence on air usage on a mag. Electronic dwell on a mag only holds the sear out of the way so that it doesn't interfere with the bolt cycle.

Dwell = time a solenoid stays energized

With that said:

Dwell (involved in an electronic only solenoid [devil mag]) = amount of power pulled from the power source in a measured time

Dwell (involved in an electro-pneumatic solenoid) = amount of air passed through the solenoid in a measured time

Different solenoids means different dwell times (obviously). So an example of a dwell time for a SMC S070 can pull a dwell at the low end of 11ms pushing less air though the solenoid,... saving air. I pick on this solenoid because it does not have a QEV installed.....

If you want to talk about the solenoids Ryan used on the Ripper frames,.. those have a QEV built into them,... which I am finding is using a bit more air based on the rate I run out of air measured against the number of shots off a full tank.

Dwell does not effect the air usage involved with the valve,... your correct. But dwell DOES effect the air efficiency of the markers shots per tank based on the dwell where the solenoid feeds of the air source.

If you have a higher dwell than you need,... your going to waste more air than the solenoid needs to push the sear to function the valve.

~ P8nt

Save my EPmag!!

Save my EPmag!!

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