Reg spring pack?

[brycelarson]

Hi guys,

Through no fault of my own I've gone from 0 mags to three mags in the last week. I'm sure I'll be on here looking for pointers regularly.

I've got a question about a classic valve with level 7. The gun simply doesn't want to work. It would chuff, not cycle at all, leak down the barrel, sprinkler when the trigger was half way pulled. Sort of the full range of problems.

First thing I did was a complete teardown, clean, lube and re-assembly. It was super filthy - so that couldn't have helped. I got a couple of rebuild kits with the gun - so I installed the o-rings from those that looked to be in the best shape.

After I put it all back together it has no leaks - but won't cycle. You pull the trigger and it just chuffs a little. The gun recharges very slowly, sometimes taking two or three seconds to reset the on/off. When it does cycle it doesn't blow forward all the way. I turned up the reg until it bottomed out - no luck.

Can the spring pack in the reg go bad? Are those symptoms just low pressure like I'm thinking?

thanks in advance - and look for questions on my level 10 mag once I get this first one up and running.



oh, and an on/off question - should the urethane oring sit around the teflon o-ring? When I insert the on/off body it seats nicely - but I can press down on it and feel the teflon o-ring nudge inside the urethane o-ring. Then the on/off body pops out slightly and I can feel the urethane o-ring squeeze the teflon back out again. Do I have the wrong o-rings?

[brycelarson]

ok, update. basic troubleshooting - swap a working for non working part - right?

I pulled the spring pack out of the classic with Lv10 - and installed on the classic with Lv7. cycles fine now.

So, spring pack needs to be replaced. Can I get those from AGD?

The question on the on/off is still in play.

[kcombs9]

AGD or Tuna will have those parts.

https://www.tunamart.com

[cockerpunk]

i'd get a new piston and stuff too if you plan to lvl 10 it. sometimes getting the velocity up can be hard with the stock lvl 7 pistons.

[brycelarson]

i'd get a new piston and stuff too if you plan to lvl 10 it. sometimes getting the velocity up can be hard with the stock lvl 7 pistons.

what are you suggesting with the "and stuff" part? Is there more than the spring pack and piston I should be looking at?

I'm waiting till I have the third mag in hand and time to give them all a good once-over to just do one order to get them all happy.

Any other suggestions on parts that I should look at/ replace that aren't in the standard rebuild kit?

oh, and another question. one of my two classic valves (both have matching serial numbers) has an RT on/off. is that a transition valve or something?

[zondo]

Through no fault of my own I've gone from 0 mags to three mags in the last week.

Welcome to our world!

oh, and an on/off question - should the urethane oring sit around the teflon o-ring? When I insert the on/off body it seats nicely - but I can press down on it and feel the teflon o-ring nudge inside the urethane o-ring. Then the on/off body pops out slightly and I can feel the urethane o-ring squeeze the teflon back out again. Do I have the wrong o-rings?

Yes, the o-rings fit inside each other. Should be a power tube o-ring and the small teflon on/off o-ring. It's been a while since I've had a classic, but you'll just kind of have to massage it a bit.
There's a good exploded diagram of the classic valve on the AGD website:

http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/downloads/valveexplodedview.pdf

Any other suggestions on parts that I should look at/ replace that aren't in the standard rebuild kit?
-I would just keep a bottle of TriFlo or other oil on hand.
-Maintain a selection of parts from the rebuild kits (classic AM/MM and Lvl10) that you would need. I think that after you have the spring pack that should be it for a while.

oh, and another question. one of my two classic valves (both have matching serial numbers) has an RT on/off. is that a transition valve or something?
Not a transition valve, some players like the feel of the trigger with the RT on/off. Just not recommended to have a ULT in the Classic.

[brycelarson]

Welcome to our world!


Yes, the o-rings fit inside each other. Should be a power tube o-ring and the small teflon on/off o-ring. It's been a while since I've had a classic, but you'll just kind of have to massage it a bit.
There's a good exploded diagram of the classic valve on the AGD website:
http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/down...plodedview.pdf

Yeah, I know how they assemble - I'm just wondering if when assembled the teflon o-ring sits on top of the power tube ring - or actually nests fully inside on the same plane. I'll poke at it some more.

and I'm no novice at gun whoring - that's old hat, just haven't done it with mags in the past.

[athomas]

...I'm just wondering if when assembled the teflon o-ring sits on top of the power tube ring - or actually nests fully inside on the same plane.

The teflon oring nests inside the larger urethane oring.

I'm suprised that the spring pack is bad. They usually don't go bad. I would have guessed that the regulator seat oring was causing your problems. When taking the valve apart, you need a new one of these. An old one will not work. They can cause the valve pin to stick.

A slow recharge is quite often caused by bolt stick. Make sure you replace the bolt spring. They wear out and cause bolt stick issues. If the powertube spacer is too short, it can cause bolt stick issues as well, but I would guess that your problems are bolt spring by the sounds of it.

If you are going to use a level 10 bolt, you will need a newer high pressure regulator piston assembly to handle the higher operating pressures.

The retro on-off will work in the classic valve. It is not stock, but makes the trigger pull half as heavy as the standard classic on-off.

[brycelarson]

The teflon oring nests inside the larger urethane oring.

I'm suprised that the spring pack is bad. They usually don't go bad. I would have guessed that the regulator seat oring was causing your problems. When taking the valve apart, you need a new one of these. An old one will not work. They can cause the valve pin to stick.

A slow recharge is quite often caused by bolt stick. Make sure you replace the bolt spring. They wear out and cause bolt stick issues. If the powertube spacer is too short, it can cause bolt stick issues as well, but I would guess that your problems are bolt spring by the sounds of it.

If you are going to use a level 10 bolt, you will need a newer high pressure regulator piston assembly to handle the higher operating pressures.

The retro on-off will work in the classic valve. It is not stock, but makes the trigger pull half as heavy as the standard classic on-off.

it's very strange - the on/off assembly keeps popping back out of the valve body by the thickness of the urethane o-ring.

I tossed the spring pack from the working Lv10 setup into the Lv7 - now it cycles great. That would indicate to me that it was the spring pack - right?

I tossed a new regulator seat o-ring in when I first cleaned them. The slow recharge rate happens even when the bolt doesn't cycle.

anthomas - is the standard AM/MM regulator piston on Tuna's site the higher pressure one you're referring to?

[athomas]

it's very strange - the on/off assembly keeps popping back out of the valve body by the thickness of the urethane o-ring.

Make sure it is the correct one. The same oring is used for both large orings in the on-off assembly and also the powertube. It should stay nested.

I tossed the spring pack from the working Lv10 setup into the Lv7 - now it cycles great. That would indicate to me that it was the spring pack - right?

Not necessarily. In the process of changing the spring pack, you may have dislodged a piece of dirt that was preventing the piston from moving properly. As mentioned, spring packs go bad very rarely. I've never seen a worn spring pack personally, although there have been rare cases where people on here have had to change them. Try the old non-working one in the working level 10 setup and see if it works. That way you will know for sure. Make sure the spring pack is oriented in the proper direction. Is the velocity adjuster stock?

Also, make sure the regulator seat oring is oriented in the correct direction. There is a front and back. The larger side snaps into the back half of the valve. It won't snap in place if it is backwards.

I tossed a new regulator seat o-ring in when I first cleaned them. The slow recharge rate happens even when the bolt doesn't cycle.

Bolt stick happens whenever the bolt is even a slight bit forward. The weakened bolt spring doesn't have enough force to push the bolt back against the powertube oring so that the sear can come forward. Two things can cause this. First, the bolt spring is weak. Second, the spacer is too short allowing the oring to be farther forward than it should. Usually it is the worn bolt spring. Bolt springs are consumable items that should be changed on a regular basis.

The partial cycle is most likely caused by a lack of pressure in the chamber. There isn't enough pressure to properly cycle the bolt. Once you solve your regulator issues in the valve, this should be corrected.

athomas - is the standard AM/MM regulator piston on Tuna's site the higher pressure one you're referring to?

It is. All new pistons are high pressure.

[brycelarson]

thanks for the info.

It does appear that I have one bad spring pack. The problem travels with that item.

Are there two different o-ring sizes in the rebuild kit that I would not be able to easily tell apart? The on/off stacking thing is strange.

[athomas]

The oring that fits on the powertube tip is a different size than the main one that seals the bolt stem in the powertube. The larger powertube tip oring would be a bit large. It is the only one that is close that you could make a mistake with. You should be able to put the nested orings on top of the on-off top with the on-off pin sticking up to hold them in place. They should stay comfortably nested allowing you to insert the whole assembly into the on-off hole.

[Spider-TW]

The oring that fits on the powertube tip is a different size than the main one that seals the bolt stem in the powertube. The larger powertube tip oring would be a bit large. It is the only one that is close that you could make a mistake with. You should be able to put the nested orings on top of the on-off top with the on-off pin sticking up to hold them in place. They should stay comfortably nested allowing you to insert the whole assembly into the on-off hole.

It might just be the tolerance on those o-rings. I have a set that have behaved this way for at least a year on a classic valve. You can bet the on/off will be tight, but if it resets ok I don't worry about it. On an RT or pneu setup, I would loosen it up one way or another (like changing the rings or polishing the mold lines off).

[brycelarson]

It might just be the tolerance on those o-rings. I have a set that have behaved this way for at least a year on a classic valve. You can bet the on/off will be tight, but if it resets ok I don't worry about it. On an RT or pneu setup, I would loosen it up one way or another (like changing the rings or polishing the mold lines off).

yeah, it cycles fine. I wonder if these o-rings are just a bit large.

I'll dig through the rebuild kit and see what I see.

[athomas]

Are the rebuild kits genuine AGD products or aftermarket? Only use genuine AGD parts unless you personally select the quality of the orings.