Need Help With My Mag! Plus See How Sexy it is!

[AutomagSniper]

Ok guys, this thread is here to show off my 'Mag but I also need some help. First I'll show it off:





It also came with a full Boo-Yah frame On/Off and all plus an extra sear.

Here's my problem, when I fire it's firing on the trigger pull but then again when I release the trigger. Any ideas as to why? Also, does the order go:

Blue bumper, bolt, spring
OR
Bolt, blue bumper, spring

The spring looks almost flush with the bolt, could that be the issue?

[Ando]

Nice mag.

Your spring is definitely bad. It will need to be replaced.

The bumper should go on before the bolt.

Blue bumper, bolt, spring

As for it firing when you pull and release the trigger. I'm not too sure on that one, never came across that problem. My best guess would be a worn sear. Post a pic of it and your bolt on the forums...hell even your on/off if your not sure what's installed.

[AutomagSniper]

It's just the stock on/off. I also have the Boo-Yah on/off. I'm guessing the spring is causing that issue that I'm having. The sear looks really good still and I have a spare I could pop in if I need to. The bolts just your standard level 7 but I'll show you how worn that spring is.

I had the bumper in right, was just making sure though. Thanks.

I took some pictures and I'll upload them tomorrow for you.


EDIT - Also, what type of body is this? It isn't metal... It's feels like stock Automag grip frames, like the same type of carbon fiber material. Odd...

[factoid]

Ok guys, this thread is here to show off my 'Mag but I also need some help. First I'll show it off:





It also came with a full Boo-Yah frame On/Off and all plus an extra sear.

Here's my problem, when I fire it's firing on the trigger pull but then again when I release the trigger. Any ideas as to why? Also, does the order go:

Blue bumper, bolt, spring
OR
Bolt, blue bumper, spring

The spring looks almost flush with the bolt, could that be the issue?

Probably the spring. I'm rehabing an old classic mag as well and I had not quite the same problem but similar....the bolt spring is almost certainly your problem. I would guess that it's bouncing around inside the mainbody and the sear isn't catching it until too late, then grabbing it on the rebound. I swapped my bolt spring out with a parts kit one and it worked great....the spring was compressed at least half a centimeter farther than the old one.

You say you have an extra sear? Put them side-by-side and see if they are a perfect match. It might also be possible that your sear is wearing down, or that your bolt-edge is getting worn as well. Any of that might contribute to the sear not catching the bolt as it springs backward.

When re-assembling the order goes bumper, bolt, spring. The spring sits metal-on-metal on both sides (one side on the bolt, the other on the mainbody). The bumper is there to absorb shock from your bolt smacking into the powertube seat.

Did you paint those parts, or were they part of a matching aftermarket set? Looks very nice. I need to do some cosmetic upgrades to my mag.

[Newt]

I've had the issue with firing twice as well. If I remember correctly, it was a combination of inconsistent input pressure and improper trigger rod length.

That looks like a cut down powerfeed body. It's stainless steel, many had a black teflon coat on them.

[AutomagSniper]

factoid - Thanks, I bought a parts kit yesterday so I'll see if that's the issue. Also the parts came with the 'Mag, I think it's a matching after market kit.

Newt - I'm using HPA so I don't think my input pressure is inconsistent. But maybe. What do you mean by improper trigger rod length? Is that adjustable.

Here's some pictures. I didn't take pictures of the sear that's currently in the marker though.

Stock on/off, also notice the extremely worn bolt spring:



Boo-Yah Frame, extra sear, stock on/off (left), Boo-Yah on/off (right):

[Newt]

Yeah, change the bolt spring first, then see how it's acting. Even HPA can be inconsistent though. For instance, an extremely worn or otherwise high maintenance bottle reg. Been there. Done that. Used the tshirt as a shop rag.

Trigger rod length is adjustable. Hold the sear arm firmly (ie: gently clamp in a vice) and grip thread the rod (needle nose pliers or a drill chuck) in or out. It may be secured with threadlock compound. The proper length should leave a small gap between the rod and trigger at operating pressure.

EDIT:
I'm not familiar with the Booyah frame, but it looks like your spare sear is missing the arm entirely. Perhaps the bottom of the sear is actuating a microswitch?

[AutomagSniper]

I think I have to use the other arm if I want to use that sear. The sear isn't specific to the Boo-Yah frame it's just a spare. So there should only be a very small gap between the trigger and trigger rod? I'll take a picture of the gap right now when the marker is aired up.





The trigger rod appears to be proper. It's hard to see but there is a very tiny gap in there.

So this is what it's doing, I fire it and it shoots. Then I release the trigger and the trigger rod won't go back with it, when the trigger rod does decide to shoot back to its starting position it fires again. I'm really thinking it's the bolt spring because that's the only thing I can really see that's wrong with the 'Mag. Otherwise it's in pretty good condition for being abused by the previous owner for who knows how long.




From my basic understanding of Automags this is what I can conclude. The issue has to be one of the following:

- Something in the on/off not resetting the sear properly
- Worn bolt spring not resetting the bolt fast enough
- Worn sear not catching the bolt
- Improper trigger rod length
- Worn bolt, not allowing the sear to catch it

Did I miss any possible issues?

[factoid]

I think I have to use the other arm if I want to use that sear. The sear isn't specific to the Boo-Yah frame it's just a spare. So there should only be a very small gap between the trigger and trigger rod? I'll take a picture of the gap right now when the marker is aired up.





The trigger rod appears to be proper. It's hard to see but there is a very tiny gap in there.

So this is what it's doing, I fire it and it shoots. Then I release the trigger and the trigger rod won't go back with it, when the trigger rod does decide to shoot back to its starting position it fires again. I'm really thinking it's the bolt spring because that's the only thing I can really see that's wrong with the 'Mag. Otherwise it's in pretty good condition for being abused by the previous owner for who knows how long.

Yes, I think based on that description it's your spring, but you might have something else going on there as well.

If I'm imagining the process correctly here's what is happening:

Trigger is pulled, the sear releases the bolt and closes the on/off valve by depressing the on/off pin

The pressure in the valve is released, the bolt flies forward but the spring does not fully return it back to the seated position.

At this point you're still holding the trigger down, forcing the on/off valve to remain closed. Normally when you release the trigger the on/off valve will open again automatically forcing the on/off pin back out and pushing the sear up over the bolt, holding it into position, preventing the bolt from moving and firing again.

But instead when you release the trigger the sear is caught on the bolt because it's too far forward and can't lock over it, which is forcing the on/off pin to remain partially closed.

This is where my understanding of the working of the valve gets murky. I would think that at this point you'd just get a leak down the front of the barrel because the bolt isn't locked, the on/off is partially open and the powertube should leak air.

But I think what might be happening is that the pressure builds up quickly enough that the on/off is forced open even though the bolt isn't held by the sear so as soon as it closes the bolt flies forward.



Since you're not describing a full auto effect I'm guessing that after the second shot the gun locks up and you can pull the trigger again? I would surmise this is because the on/off pin is now pushing down on the sear with enough force that it catches the bolt as it flies back the second time.


Take my word with a grain of salt. I've been doing a LOT of reading on the classic valve lately though, because I'm putting mine back in service.

[Ando]

Try shoving something down the front of the marker and push on the bolt. If it resets and the trigger arm comes forward then ya. Probably a spring.

Is your rail bushing is installed right? Your grip screw is snug and field strip screw is finger tight?

If the sear arm still isn't wanting to push forward after you try pushing on the bolt then try messing with your field strip screw. Get an allen key and tighten it down a 1/4 turn or until you hear the on/off pin set.

Don't go too far with it. They've been known to snap off inside the valve.

[AutomagSniper]

Yes, I think based on that description it's your spring, but you might have something else going on there as well.

If I'm imagining the process correctly here's what is happening:

Trigger is pulled, the sear releases the bolt and closes the on/off valve by depressing the on/off pin

The pressure in the valve is released, the bolt flies forward but the spring does not fully return it back to the seated position.

At this point you're still holding the trigger down, forcing the on/off valve to remain closed. Normally when you release the trigger the on/off valve will open again automatically forcing the on/off pin back out and pushing the sear up over the bolt, holding it into position, preventing the bolt from moving and firing again.

But instead when you release the trigger the sear is caught on the bolt because it's too far forward and can't lock over it, which is forcing the on/off pin to remain partially closed.

This is where my understanding of the working of the valve gets murky. I would think that at this point you'd just get a leak down the front of the barrel because the bolt isn't locked, the on/off is partially open and the powertube should leak air.

But I think what might be happening is that the pressure builds up quickly enough that the on/off is forced open even though the bolt isn't held by the sear so as soon as it closes the bolt flies forward.



Since you're not describing a full auto effect I'm guessing that after the second shot the gun locks up and you can pull the trigger again? I would surmise this is because the on/off pin is now pushing down on the sear with enough force that it catches the bolt as it flies back the second time.


Take my word with a grain of salt. I've been doing a LOT of reading on the classic valve lately though, because I'm putting mine back in service.

You explained my thoughts exactly. Sometimes it will do it more than once.

Here's what I think:

-Pull the trigger
--Sear releases the bolt
--On/off is closed
--Marker fires

-Release the trigger
--Bolt cycles back, but on partially due to a faulty spring
--Sear catches the bolt mid cycle
*This is where I'm starting to guess*
--On/off opens, but since the sear is in a weird place it hits the sear and closes
--Marker fires again
--The bolt now has enough force to bounce back because it was already halfway to the checkpoint and still received a full cycle's worth of air?

I also forgot to mention, when I release the trigger and it's about to fire again the trigger rod is a noticeably further back from the trigger than it was in that picture I took.


Unfortunately because I leave for basic training in 5 days I won't have time to fix it and test it. So I guess maybe you guys will hear from me in a couple years (after basic I go to BUD/S which is SEAL training and that lasts around a year or so).

[factoid]

You explained my thoughts exactly. Sometimes it will do it more than once.

Here's what I think:

-Pull the trigger
--Sear releases the bolt
--On/off is closed
--Marker fires

-Release the trigger
--Bolt cycles back, but on partially due to a faulty spring
--Sear catches the bolt mid cycle
*This is where I'm starting to guess*
--On/off opens, but since the sear is in a weird place it hits the sear and closes
--Marker fires again
--The bolt now has enough force to bounce back because it was already halfway to the checkpoint and still received a full cycle's worth of air?

I also forgot to mention, when I release the trigger and it's about to fire again the trigger rod is a noticeably further back from the trigger than it was in that picture I took.


Unfortunately because I leave for basic training in 5 days I won't have time to fix it and test it. So I guess maybe you guys will hear from me in a couple years (after basic I go to BUD/S which is SEAL training and that lasts around a year or so).

I've never tried this personally, but if your spring is worn you probably don't have much to lose....you could try stretching the bolt spring a bit.

It probably won't last long, but lengthening the spring by a centimeter or so will add additional energy into the bolt return. It might work for a few cycles before it recompresses though.

If you really wanted to get it done before you take off for basic you could probably order from ActionVillage. I ordered a mag parts kit from them last friday and got it in the mail monday.

If not, good luck in basic and with BUD/S. My cousin is just finishing up Army basic this month and then goes off to bomb squad school.

[AutomagSniper]

Thanks man, my SEAL mentor says basic will be a joke since he's been training me. But he said I have all the reason in the world to be terrified of BUD/S, just never quit!

[fishmishin]

Also check the on/off orings in the valve. The inner o-ring needs to be a small white one. I have seen some classic valves do some funny stuff with a worn out inner oring.

[Zone Drifter]

I posted on the tech forum about the same problem. I tried a ULT on/off in an emag valve with level 7, also got the same problem as my classic with it's stock on/off. This leads me to believe it's probably the spring. I'll have to check once I get home, since I have some new springs, just haven't thought to try them out yet.

Have fun in basic training! It's a blast so long as you can run in the group.