Old level 10 kit?

[factoid]

I just got my new level 10 bolt last night and I was surprised that when I took it out of the package that it did not look like what I was expecting.

The contents of the package are:

Power Tube Tip
4 shims
3 carrier o-rings
2 backing washers
Extra Foamie
Long grey spring
Short grey spring
4 carriers


My carriers go from 0 to 1.5. All the instructions I've seen say I should START with a 2.0 carrier and work up or down from there.

I started with a 1.5 but couldn't get it to cycle. put in the smaller spring, still nothing. Cranked the velocity, still nothing. Put in a 1.0 carrier and cranked the velocity and it cycles now. I lodged a paintball in the breech and it will not chop it, which is fantastic.

But then I put some balls all the way into the breech and about 1 in 4 shots it engages just from contacting the ball.

I've got the shortest spring in already. How can I make the level ten a little bit less sensitive?

My new reg piston hasn't arrived yet, but it should be coming today. It seems to be working fine without it, but maybe that's an issue?

I also have Doc's barrel adapter in the marker, and the paint seems to be a pretty snug fit. So maybe a combination of the small breech and the spyder detent is causing too much friction?

[Spider-TW]

The detent shouldn't be a problem, but all sources of friction do count.

If the ball has to squeeze in the breech, the lvl10 will often kick in. A good guideline (athomas' iirc) is the lvl 10 o-ring should be just tight enough to suspend the bolt when you hold the valve over your hand and point the bolt down gently. I've had one feel like it wasn't even there and still seal fine. If the 1.5 carrier will seal, I would try that again. You want the largest carrier that will not leak.

I've lost track of the lengths of the springs in the kit lately. If your old spring was good ( about 1/8 inch or more past the bolt tip), you can try that one. The fresh springs often like to work only at higher pressures (necessary for the level 10), so it can be a little tricky to get your new level 10 operating pressure set with your new spring and seal. Once you find the largest carrier you can use (without shims), then try to balance out your spring with the velocity you need. I usually run with weaker springs so that I can turn the velocity down to 250 fps for night games, which can be a problem with a stiff spring. If you run at a higher velocity all the time, you can use a stiffer spring for a softer bolt and not worry about it. After all that, then fiddle with the shims if necessary.

They reduced the number of carriers in the kit because they found the higher numbered carriers were not needed.

[factoid]

The detent shouldn't be a problem, but all sources of friction do count.

If the ball has to squeeze in the breech, the lvl10 will often kick in. A good guideline (athomas' iirc) is the lvl 10 o-ring should be just tight enough to suspend the bolt when you hold the valve over your hand and point the bolt down gently. I've had one feel like it wasn't even there and still seal fine. If the 1.5 carrier will seal, I would try that again. You want the largest carrier that will not leak.

I've lost track of the lengths of the springs in the kit lately. If your old spring was good ( about 1/8 inch or more past the bolt tip), you can try that one. The fresh springs often like to work only at higher pressures (necessary for the level 10), so it can be a little tricky to get your new level 10 operating pressure set with your new spring and seal. Once you find the largest carrier you can use (without shims), then try to balance out your spring with the velocity you need. I usually run with weaker springs so that I can turn the velocity down to 250 fps for night games, which can be a problem with a stiff spring. If you run at a higher velocity all the time, you can use a stiffer spring for a softer bolt and not worry about it. After all that, then fiddle with the shims if necessary.

They reduced the number of carriers in the kit because they found the higher numbered carriers were not needed.

I had my biggest (1.5) carrier in there with 2 shims and no leaking. I'll go up to 4 shims and see if I can get a leak. Maybe with the level 7 spring on it will cycle and actually push balls through the barrel. It's only got about 1500 rounds through it plus any dry firing, so it's plenty long.

If it doesn't leak with a 1.5 and 4 shims should I order a 2.0 carrier?

I'm wondering if my paint isn't part of the problem. The field told me it was Nightmare, which I think is a diablo paint that isn't even made anymore. Everyone was having trouble with it last weekend. They're really big too. My barrel back is .689 and I have to blow hard to get it through. Even the cocker barrel adapter is snug on it, and that thing is at least a .690 bore.

I have some left over rec grade paint from a couple weeks ago that was much smaller. I'll try those and see if they help. Hopefully I can get this thing shooting well. I'd really rather not throw out the last 500 rounds of this paint out or have to switch back to my twist-lock barrel. That field generally only carries two types of paint...rec and mid-grade and you just kind of take whatever they have. Otherwise entry is double to bring your own paint.

[athomas]

As mentioned, if the 1.5 carrier didn't leak, use it rather than the smaller 1.0 size. I am surprised the kit only came with two spring sizes. Unless they changed things up, they used to come with the stiffest long gray spring, the middle long red spring, and the shortest lightest gold spring. I assume the short gray one is the same as the gold one. I wonder if the red one is missing. However, the stock level 7 spring which is the shortest one in the level 10 kit, should work in all situations. Using the largest carrier that does not leak, crank the velocity setting up until it fires. If it is having issues with the cocker adapter, it could be tight or off centered. Does the bolt move freely into the adapter without the bolt spring attached. Try it without the bolt spring, and of course, without any air attached. The bolt should drop into the breach when you point the gun down and return when you put the gun pointing up.

The reg piston won't affect operation, but will allow you to use the higher pressure of the level 10 without air venting out the back of the valve.

[factoid]

As mentioned, if the 1.5 carrier didn't leak, use it rather than the smaller 1.0 size. I am surprised the kit only came with two spring sizes. Unless they changed things up, they used to come with the stiffest long gray spring, the middle long red spring, and the shortest lightest gold spring. I assume the short gray one is the same as the gold one. I wonder if the red one is missing. However, the stock level 7 spring which is the shortest one in the level 10 kit, should work in all situations. Using the largest carrier that does not leak, crank the velocity setting up until it fires. If it is having issues with the cocker adapter, it could be tight or off centered. Does the bolt move freely into the adapter without the bolt spring attached. Try it without the bolt spring, and of course, without any air attached. The bolt should drop into the breach when you point the gun down and return when you put the gun pointing up.

The reg piston won't affect operation, but will allow you to use the higher pressure of the level 10 without air venting out the back of the valve.

Thanks for the tips. I'm going to:

Check the carrier o-ring fit with hang test
Put the 1.5 carrier back on
Check bolt travel into adapter without a spring
Reinstall level 7 bolt spring
Try smaller paint


As far as I can tell NOBODY has red bolt springs anymore. AGD seems to have run out. So has tuna. Anyone else carry that stuff?

[Spider-TW]

I believe that the only difference in the springs was the length. They were the same wire and the same turns per inch, just different lengths. Since it became common to cut long springs shorter for use, it made the inclusion of short springs somewhat pointless (unless you have no tools or macguyverness at all).

Save your old springs; they are at least useful for pump mags.

[factoid]

So it seems the problem is with Doc's cocker adapter. Upon pulling it out and dropping some paintballs into it, they do not drop all the way into the breech.

I thought maybe it was the detent because the one I have isn't the one Doc sent with it (I lost that one in about 5 minutes) but it's extremely similar. It wasn't for a Spyder, but probably for a spyder knockoff. It fits in the detent slot perfectly.

But I took the detent out completely and balls still do not load completely. They are catching on the rim.

Once they're in they seem to have reasonable clearance so I'm inclined to think the breech is just a TAD too small.

Now it's possible that my paint is a little swollen from heat because I bought it on a tremendously hot day at the field. It's tight in my .689 barrel back, but it drops right into my PMI Perfect twist-lock.

Is there a good way to widen that breech hole out? I bet if I took it out another .002 or .005 it would be fine.

Could I take a sanding bit from my dremel and just file it down a little? I don't want to ruin it, but I also don't want to send it back for repair, replacement or refund if I don't have to.

I wouldn't think that a little sanding of the breech would cause me any problems as long as the edges are not ragged.

Ideas?


EDIT: Oh and as for the testing on the level 10, I put the 1.5 carrier back on, took out the shims and I found a carrier o-ring in the pack that was a little looser than the one I had on at first but still tight enough to suspend the bolt upside down. It's a little looser than the one I had on there.

I left the same bolt spring for now. The short one.

Basically the level 10 is doing its job: not chopping the paint that my stupid barrel adapter won't let all the way into the breech.

[Tunaman]

I believe that the only difference in the springs was the length. They were the same wire and the same turns per inch, just different lengths. Since it became common to cut long springs shorter for use, it made the inclusion of short springs somewhat pointless (unless you have no tools or macguyverness at all).

Save your old springs; they are at least useful for pump mags.

all three of the springs use different wire sizes. They are not the same. You can obtain good results by cutting down any of them except the gold one.

[athomas]

Is there a good way to widen that breech hole out? I bet if I took it out another .002 or .005 it would be fine.

Could I take a sanding bit from my dremel and just file it down a little? I don't want to ruin it, but I also don't want to send it back for repair, replacement or refund if I don't have to.

I wouldn't think that a little sanding of the breech would cause me any problems as long as the edges are not ragged.

If you have access to a 12 gauge barrel hone, that would gently sand out the interior of the breach. We used them to hone tight barrels to get a better paint match back in the late 80s to early 90s. If you don't have access to a hone, then you can wrap some sand paper around your finger and do it. You just have to be more vigilant with your finger, to make sure you sand evenly on all surfaces to maintain a round interior.

[factoid]

I'm not actually going to touch the interior bore of the adapter. If I load a ball fro the front or the back they fit in there fine...it's just the hole on the side they can't quite pass through, so I'll widen that up with some sandpaper or a dremel bit or something and it should be OK.

I wouldn't think any tampering with that small section would have any impact on the paint other than letting it into the breech easier. It probably wouldn't even be an issue if I had a force-feed loader. It takes just a bare tap to nudge a ball past the opening and into the adapter, at which point the level 10 has no trouble with it.

As for cutting springs: Is there a right way and a wrong way to do that? Do you need to do anything other than a straight cut with wire cutters? Doesn't that ruin the nice flat ring at the end of the spring, or do you have to re-bend it somehow to preserve that?

[factoid]

Success!

I used a combination of my dremel and a bit of sandpaper to widen and smooth out the breech entrance.

That was enough to get my paint dropping into the barrel freely, but it was still getting caught up on my detent. I just shortened it a little with my exacto knife. I hope that works. If not I'm taking my twist-lock to the field just in case.

I believe my level 10 is working properly. Do you guys think I should buy a 2.0 carrier to see if that one leaks on me?

I've read that longer springs are softer on paint, but my short spring seems to be OK. Is there any reason that I should try cutting my long spring shorter just to find the max length I can get my gun to cycle at?

[athomas]

The short spring works great in most cases. The long spring just allows you to tweak the force down to the minimum. If you don't shoot very brittle high end tournament paint, then you probably don't need a long spring.

If you are cutting a spring, just use wire cutters. Place the cut end of the spring against the bolt. Keep one of the ends square. The flat end goes against the body.

If the gun cycles without any bolt stick, then I wouldn't worry about going to the next larger carrier, seeing as you would have to order it. If sticking is an issue with the one you have, then you will need it.

[factoid]

Sounds good! No bolt stick yet, but I have only shot a handful of paint through it, so we'll see today. Thanks for your help everyone!

If all goes well at the field today I think I'll be done tinkering for a while. Not much left to do on this mag until I save up some more money.

[factoid]

Everything worked phenomenally well at the field today. First time I was able to take my cocker threaded barrel out for a spin. It shoots money. It's Furious Lotus barrel.

The level 10 was great. I only noticed it engage once all day, and it caused a little bit of a ball jam. I whacked the powerfeed a couple times and eventually it cleared after a few shots. I'm guessing I had an oblong ball hang up on the breech and wouldn't enter all the way. Only happened once in about 500ish rounds fired though, so I'm happy about that. It would have been a chop had it been for the level 10 so that's awesome.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

[athomas]

Excellent! Always nice to hear good news.