Old level 10 kit?

[Spider-TW]

all three of the springs use different wire sizes. They are not the same. You can obtain good results by cutting down any of them except the gold one.

I went and checked my unused red and grey springs. They were .060 (+1/-0) wire, where the old black and gold ones were .063 (+0/-1), which I thought the difference was the coatings (really thin on the red and grey, like etched and painted). The red and grey have the same number of turns per inch as well. My other springs are old, so they have more turns per inch in any event.

I have also read that they may be tempered differently, but I would have make a tester, as I can't feel the difference (not that's saying much).

I would like to know all of the differences between them, since a good .002 on the wire diameter shouldn't make as much difference as the extra coils, or lack thereof.

[Spider-TW]

Place the cut end of the spring against the bolt. Keep one of the ends square. The cut end goes against the body.

You might want to clarify this for future reference. :)

[factoid]

I went and checked my unused red and grey springs. They were .060 (+1/-0) wire, where the old black and gold ones were .063 (+0/-1), which I thought the difference was the coatings (really thin on the red and grey, like etched and painted). The red and grey have the same number of turns per inch as well. My other springs are old, so they have more turns per inch in any event.

I have also read that they may be tempered differently, but I would have make a tester, as I can't feel the difference (not that's saying much).

I would like to know all of the differences between them, since a good .002 on the wire diameter shouldn't make as much difference as the extra coils, or lack thereof.

Maybe those are just differences in the wire stock they get from their suppliers.


And from what I've read elsewhere on here the cut end should go against the bolt, not the body. I think he meant to say cut end against the bolt flat end against the body.

If you put the cut end against the body it can turn and get threaded inside the body and screw things up.

My question about cutting the spring is: doesn't putting a cut spring against the bolt cause extra friction? all the force of that bolt will be pointed on one side, pushing the bolt against the power tube instead of spread evenly across the surface.

[Spider-TW]

My question about cutting the spring is: doesn't putting a cut spring against the bolt cause extra friction? all the force of that bolt will be pointed on one side, pushing the bolt against the power tube instead of spread evenly across the surface.

True, but at least you have the rest of the bolt body to provide a guide. On the only cut spring I've used, I bent the cut end a little like a half coil end. I have a cheap set of Pakistani orthodontic pliers that are handy for wire bending.

[athomas]

I do believe I accidentally mentioned putting the cut end against the body, even after correctly saying to put it against the bolt. I corrected the statement. Thanks for catching that error in wording.

The cut end does compress down and the bolt does act like a guide. The single point of contact on the bolt is not really there once the spring gets compressed a bit. The flat end needs to go against the body to prevent the single wire end from threading into the breach as mentioned.

[factoid]

I think I will experiment with trimming down my long bolt next weekend to make a middle length spring.

The paint I play with generally isn't brittle tourney paint, but I'd like to be able to use that stuff.

The one time I noticed my Level 10 doing its job I got a jam afterward. I had a ball stuck in the breech, maybe another one had snuck past the detent or something and it took several good whacks and a bunch of trigger pulls to finally clear it and get shooting again.

I am wondering if maybe a softer touch would have not caused it to jam up like that. Difficult to say. I could definitely go up a little higher though. My low velocity that the gun cycles at was around 235. I'm guessing that with a medium spring it might start cycling around 260ish? That would be perfect because my field limit is 285.

How much do you cut off a long spring to make a medium spring? Start one coil at a time?

Or maybe it's better to just wait until someone gets red springs back in stock.

[Spider-TW]

I'll try to remember to measure the length of a red one tonight. It looked like it was one full turn shorter than the grey one, but I will look again.

The last time I had a level 10 hold me up, my paint had been hot, old, and sitting under a B2 loader spring for about half an hour (and had been re-bumped a few times). The next three balls had been squeezed oblong. Once I cleared the feedneck, everything got going again. I turned the force down in the loader too.

[factoid]

I'll try to remember to measure the length of a red one tonight. It looked like it was one full turn shorter than the grey one, but I will look again.

The last time I had a level 10 hold me up, my paint had been hot, old, and sitting under a B2 loader spring for about half an hour (and had been re-bumped a few times). The next three balls had been squeezed oblong. Once I cleared the feedneck, everything got going again. I turned the force down in the loader too.

Thanks, I appreciate it! Per tunaman AGD does not have red springs anymore and won't. If you want medium springs you have to cut them, so that's what I'll try. Hopefully my wire cutters are strong enough. Can you clip these wires with a standard dike or does it take something heftier like a tin snip?

[athomas]

Any wire cutters such as those found on most pliers will be fine for cutting springs. The 235 fps that you found to be your starting velocity, allows you to use a bit stiffer spring. Try the stiff grey one and see where it starts. Then make your cut and measure the starting velocity again. That will give you an idea as to how much you will need to cut off each time to make adjustments.

[factoid]

I definitely need to find better wire cutters for this. That spring is HARD.

My pliers are too big to get in there without bending up the wire but I actually wrecked a pair of small wire cutters trying to clip this thing.

Admittedly they were pretty flimsy and cheap. I think they came for free with something else so I'm not too broken up about it. Time to go to the hardware store to pick up a nice pair of hardened steel wire cutters.

Or I'll just have to saw it off with a dremel bit.

[athomas]

I forgot about the smaller wire cutters. The edges on them are too small and brittle to handle the hardness of these springs. The tiny cutters are only good for small gauge copper wire. You need larger hardened cutters such as those on standard size pliers or even bolt cutters.

[factoid]

The dremel bit worked well. I took a turn off the spring and it started firing.

Strange problems arose, though. I gassed it up and it started firing right away with the new longer spring. After a few shots it started leaking down the barrel.

I immediately assumed this was probably because the o-ring was breaking in, but I thought I'd try switching to the shorter spring first since that was all I had changed and it still leaked down the barrel as soon as I pulled the trigger once.

I switched down to a 1.0 carrier and that seemed to stop it. So I tried putting the long spring back on and it still leaks intermittently down the barrel. Sometimes I'll gas it up and it will shoot just fine. Then I'll remove the valve, put it back together (not changing anything) and it will leak the next time.

None of this happens with a 1.0 carrier and the gold spring so that's what I've got in there for now.

I just thought this was really strange. Anyone heard of barrel leaks associated with spring length? Is that a shim thing maybe? I don't have any shims in this configuration.

[athomas]

Adding shims will not help and could make it worst.

When you use the different springs, is that without changing the velocity setting (ie; is the chamber pressure the same each time)?

How old is your sear? Perhaps the wear on the tip is just enough allow the bolt to sit forward far enough to almost expose the vent hole. The stiffer spring would push and hold the bolt so that it has less tension on the sear, which could be just enough to allow more of the vent hole to be exposed. Shooting would also cause the carrier to shift and cause periodic leaking. The tighter carrier does help to tighten the oring near the vent hole but is just a band-aid fix in this case. If the sear is worn, you will need a new one if you want to be able use the correct oring to prevent bolt stick in your setup.

[factoid]

Adding shims will not help and could make it worst.

When you use the different springs, is that without changing the velocity setting (ie; is the chamber pressure the same each time)?

How old is your sear? Perhaps the wear on the tip is just enough allow the bolt to sit forward far enough to almost expose the vent hole. The stiffer spring would push and hold the bolt so that it has less tension on the sear, which could be just enough to allow more of the vent hole to be exposed. Shooting would also cause the carrier to shift and cause periodic leaking. The tighter carrier does help to tighten the oring near the vent hole but is just a band-aid fix in this case. If the sear is worn, you will need a new one if you want to be able use the correct oring to prevent bolt stick in your setup.

The sear is old like the rest of the parts but this mag doesn't have that much mileage on it. Maybe 5-8 cases tops. I've had it apart recently to clean and it didn't seem to have any rounded surfaces or signs of wear.

It's not just that it leaks intermittently....if I disassemble the gun and reassemble it it will either leak after I pull the trigger the first time or it won't.

I can tell the carrier o-ring has broken in a bit because when I installed it a week ago it was snug enough that it could hold the bolt on the power tube upside down. Now it slides right off. So I slipped down to a 1.0 carrier and it's snug enough to hold on again. The tuning guides I've read warned that the o-ring will wear in after a few hundred shots and a tighter carrier may be necessary.

So I'm not sure that part has anything to do with the spring. I haven't had any bolt stick problems and I probably dry fired it a couple hundred times.

[athomas]

The sear should be ok. It takes a lot more than 8 cases to cause enough wear to be a problem.

The oring could have had a larger ridge around its inner surface. That would wear a bit more aggressively.

The carrier does not sit in exactly the same location each cycle. It does float in the powertube. The pressure in the chamber keeps it forward. The powertube tip keeps it at the correct distance. Any uneven surfaces on the oring could affect it. Have you tried a different powertube carrier oring?

When you invoke a leak, take the barrel off and put your finger on the front of the bolt and push it back and/or wiggle it around to see if it affects the leak. If pushing the bolt back stops the leak, then it could be an issue with the vent hole location/bolt position. If the leak changes pitch when you wiggle the bolt but still leaks when you push it back, it is probably just an oring issue.