mag noob. 20 questions before i buy.

[Red Reign]

first off, this will probably be my woodsball co2 gat, so question
(1) will any mag without an x-valve take co2?
(2) to run co2, would i need anything more than an expansion chamber?
(3) what other valves has AGD used?
(4) what are the major differences in the valves?
(5) is there more to adjust at the chrono than the regulated pressure and the main spring strength?
(6) do all mags before the RT pro use the twist lock barrels?
(7) is the only way to get the cocker threading with a ULE mainbody?
(7) can the direction of the feed tube be changed with just the mainbody?
(8) what makes a mag mini or micro?
(9) i'm getting a lvl 10 bolt with it. any drawbacks to it at all?
(10) what parts make up the reactive trigger feature? (have to be x-valve? certain frame?)

...think thats it for now, please be nice...

[factoid]

first off, this will probably be my woodsball co2 gat, so question
(1) will any mag without an x-valve take co2?
(2) to run co2, would i need anything more than an expansion chamber?
(3) what other valves has AGD used?
(4) what are the major differences in the valves?
(5) is there more to adjust at the chrono than the regulated pressure and the main spring strength?
(6) do all mags before the RT pro use the twist lock barrels?
(7) is the only way to get the cocker threading with a ULE mainbody?
(7) can the direction of the feed tube be changed with just the mainbody?
(8) what makes a mag mini or micro?
(9) i'm getting a lvl 10 bolt with it. any drawbacks to it at all?
(10) what parts make up the reactive trigger feature? (have to be x-valve? certain frame?)

...think thats it for now, please be nice...

1: Only 68 automag valves, also called A.I.R. valves or classic valves, take CO2, and they only do so grudgingly. These will be all-stainless automag and minimag valves. Nothing that says RT Classic, Retrovalve, RT Pro, X-Valve or E-Mag will work with CO2.

2: Make sure you get an antisiphon tube in your tank, unless you're running a remote line in which case absolutely DO NOT get an antisiphon tube....that will just turn it into a liquid CO2 straw.

3: AGD has a bunch of valves but the ones you want are 68Automag and Minimag classic valves. They look like this: http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/museum/AIR%20Valve.htm They are easy to spot because the regulator nut in the very back is small. On the RT Pro and X-Valves the reg nut is almost twice the diameter.

4: From a design standpoint the main changes are in the regulator and the on/off. The regulator is designed to recharge MUCH faster in an RT based valve than in the AIR valves. Speeds upwards of 30 shots per second have been recorded. The on/off valve is designed to have a "reactive trigger" which is what the RT stands for. The recharge of the valve actually forces the trigger back into your finger. If the input pressure is high enough and you control the "sweet spot" just right you can make the trigger bounce and fire in full auto.

All of the valves from RT Classic onward share a similar design, just with different updates and construction materials. The x-valve for example is all aluminum in construction instead of stainless and includes a Level 10 bolt.

5: You should never need to adjust your mainspring at the chrono. The only time you change the length of your mainspring is to tune a level 10 bolt. It DOES affect chrono speeds, but only in so much as it affects what minimum pressure your gun will start firing at. If it's too high you'll need a shorter spring to bring your chrono speed down. 99.99% of the time you just turn the reg nut to alter velocity.

6: In stock configuration, yes, but many have been modified with aftermarket bodies that use threaded barrels.


7: There are other third party bodies that use AC threads, but what you really want is Doc's adapter. He's out of stock right now, but these show up sometimes one the forums for sale. I have one and it's great. http://docsshop.com/product_info.php...products_id=59

The other 7: Yes and no. If you're using twist-lock barrels you also need to make sure it works on either left or right configurations. Most twist lock barrels work in either type, but some only have a single groove cut in them. Doc's adapter works in left, right or centerfeed bodies, so it becomes moot.


8: A minimag is identical to a classic mag, just with a longer (ironically) body with cool porting on the front. The valve was also laser-engraved with "minimag" instead of "automag". The valve construction is identical though. They were called minimags because they came stock with vertical ASAs so you could screw a tank right in and keep a tight profile. A micromag is a third party body made by Pro Team Products. It's just a very compact rail-less mag body. Kinda spendy, but neat.

mini: http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/museum/Mini.htm
classic: http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/museum/Automag.htm
micro: http://www.proteamdirect.com/mi20pr.html

9: None really. It just takes a bit of tinkering to tune it right. Once it's working it generally just keeps working until it's time to replace o-rings. Unless you run super-brittle paint you'll pretty much never chop a ball.

10: RT is created by two things. The on/off valve and the regulator. It also helps to have high input pressure...something like 1000psi+ You can put an RT on/off assembly in a classic mag, but it won't RT because the reg is designed differently. It will make the trigger pull a little lighter, though.

It's not really attainable with CO2 because only RT regs can do it, and those regs recharge so fast that you basically can't stop them from freezing under CO2, even at slow firing speeds. Also CO2 pressure doesn't normally get high enough even if it didn't freeze the gun up. Most RT mags need better than 900-1000PSI to sweet spot.

edit: Oh and a tip for playing on CO2...if your gun starts leaking down the barrel after a long string, you probably froze it with liquid CO2. Hold your trigger down to stop the leak and let the o-rings warm up. After a minute the liquid will boil off and your o-rings will hold pressure again. I presume you're going with CO2 because you don't have access to an air compressor for refills? If so my recommendation is invest in a scuba tank and fill station.

[Red Reign]

Awesome response! You're the hero of the day.

I use hpa at the field i go to, but play some occasional woodsball with friends of friends. They fill off co2 all day. My e-cocker obviously can't run that, and my mech runs a lp 215 psi with the rocket valve, difficult to set up for co2.

Anyway, started looking for my next addiction and i've been bit by the mag-bug. Found a guy to part with his classic (i think) for $70. And he's including an unopened level 10 bolt kit, and barrels with it. Seems like a deal hard to pass.

[punkncat]

(1) will any mag without an x-valve take co2?
(2) to run co2, would i need anything more than an expansion chamber?
If it is fairly warm out, use a vert bottle setup on a remote running to a good expansion chamber. Keep your rates of fire moderate, and the classic valve will do ok. If you reach a high ROF, the valve will freeze up. Use your hand to warm the valve and it will unfreeze. The old school fix was to run a coil of braided from the x chamber to the valve.

(3) what other valves has AGD used?
(4) what are the major differences in the valves?
The classic valve was the first valve. After that, as HPA came more common to the average guy the Classic RT valve was released. It used direct pressure on the on/off pin, as well as a slightly modified design to allow the reactivity and a much faster recharge rate. The classic RT used a banjo fitting and passages through the rail to bring air to the valve. The new RT, and X valves bring in air through a fitting in the side, like a classic. Functionally, the RT, RTP-X, X valve, E-mag valve, etc are all the same. The only issue is that the older stainless/alum. valves (aside from E-Mag valves iirc) didn't all have the current "flat bottom" milling in the on/off and will not accept ULT

(5) is there more to adjust at the chrono than the regulated pressure and the main spring strength?
This is really two different issues. In a classic lvl7 valve, all you would have to do is adjust pressure to make velocity by turning the rear of the valve (reg) assy w/ and allen key.
LX, the newer anti chop bolt system (lvl 10) requires tuning and adjustment of the spring, but is a seperate issue best addressed through the step by step on the home page.

(6) do all mags before the RT pro use the twist lock barrels?
(7) is the only way to get the cocker threading with a ULE mainbody?
All of the older bodies, the stainless ones like power feed or standard bodies (some vert feed) use twistlocks. The newer ULE, and (some) Micromag bodies use cocker threaded barrels. All mags aside from the Classic RT can be converted to use a ULE body.



(7) can the direction of the feed tube be changed with just the mainbody?
yes

(8) what makes a mag mini or micro?
The difference in the body. Minimag has the machinegun looking front end, where the micro is a milled block of alum.

(9) i'm getting a lvl 10 bolt with it. any drawbacks to it at all?
As addressed above, there is a tuning period unless you buy it already broken in and tuned. It can be frustrating, but pays in dividends when you get it right.

(10) what parts make up the reactive trigger feature? (have to be x-valve? certain frame?)
RT valves are all reactive, even with ULT. Classic valves are not reactive. I have heard of mixed results with putting an RT on/off into one. There is a frame made, bit hard to find now, that will shoot on pull and release. There are also bolt on e-frames, and pneumatic mods.

[Red Reign]

Sounds like i may just avoid co2. I don't have a need for it, but would i be getting a good deal? Whats the value of a common classic with a barrel and a level 10?

[punkncat]

Best to look around at the B/S/T and see what is actually moving. What one would sell for last year, and now are a bit different. It also depends what else is on it. Personally I would say it was a good deal, sight unseen, if its in good shape and between $125-150.

[factoid]

For 70 dollars you're getting a fantastic deal. Don't pass it up!

A classic mag with a level 7 bolt in working condition usually sells for around 100 dollars. The level 10 bolt kit by itself is 60-80 dollars new...and for an all-mechanical marker it's simply the greatest paintball innovation of all time.

Get the mag...you won't regret it.

I don't want to oversell it as being bad with CO2. We all ran our mags on CO2 for years. They're great. All guns are better on HPA than CO2. As punkncat said there are old-school tricks to keep liquid out of the valve. A long coil of braided hose was pretty common, or a tall loop that stuck up a few inches above the valve.

Personally when I'm playing woodsball with no fill station nearby I either bring my scuba tank to do fills or I take a couple of cheap spare steel tanks with me. It's not that often that I need more than two 48/3000s for a day in the woods, but that's just me. Cheap guerilla air or pure energy tank is 30-50 dollars. less if you get em used.