RT tuning

[38super]

I'm new to the AO forum so please bear with me. I seek to tap into the vast body of knowledge out there in AO land on getting a mag to run "just so."
I have an RT ULE that I bought last year and have been trying to tune since for faster shooting. I love the gun and don't want to change. I play only recreationaly (walk-on games) but can't get any speed with it and getting tired of being lit up by all the guys with electros.

Tried so far:

Shimming the ult from 3 to 7 shims. Short-stroking constantly.

Tunablade trigger with stops. Pre-travel is backed all the way out and over-travel doesn't seem to be long enough. Have to get a longer 4/40 and try it.

Brand new Ninja 68/4500 tank with spare shim kit. Guy who sold it to me installed 3 extra shims so it should be over 1000 psi output. Don't know where to get that measured, but it's already blown the 0-ring out of my quick-release.....

Also have 2 rt on/offs. One @ .750" pin and one @ .740".

So I've tried every combination I can think of. The gun is reliable, shoots straight and I am very happy with it. But my background is in high speed competitive pistol shooting and I am used to being able to shoot a mechanical trigger pretty fast (.11 splits). I know that's not much in Paintball land but it is with a full recoiling pistol. With this gun set-up though I doubt that I can get much more than 3 -5 rounds per second, so I am definitely out gunned on the indoor, fast paced games that we are relegated to during the winter months.

With the over-shimmed ult in it and the high pressure output I can make it rt occasionally for a few shots at a time, but never in a game. As well, velocity is VERY erratic with spreads measured this past Sunday from 180 to 290 fps. Had to back it down so that the highest shot was under the field limit. Needless to say this was not ideal for consistent shooting. It will not rt with the rt valve in it.

I've looked at Zach Vetter's site, perused various posts on here, but can't seem to form a solid consensus as to what I may be doing wrong. Other than a longer trigger stop, it looks like my only solution is to keep boosting output pressure until the gun rt's and then back it off slightly. Since I'm dealing with pressure vessels though, I'm concerned about this. Should I be? I don't want to trade reliability for higher speed or do something dangerous.

Ideally, I am looking to achieve a short pull stroke with a snappy reset that will accommodate my shooting technique. Can this be done?

Thanks in advance

[hill160881]

Its all about input pressure. You need a ninja 1100psi output tank reg or an adjustable tank regulator.

A friend of mine is the old authority on how to do this to a RT mag. here is his website

http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paintballs/automag_info/rapidfire/rf_disclaimer.html

[38super]

Its all about input pressure. You need a ninja 1100psi output tank reg or an adjustable tank regulator.

A friend of mine is the old authority on how to do this to a RT mag. here is his website

http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paint...isclaimer.html

Thanks; I've seen Zach's site and it was very useful.

The Ninja tank came new with between 800 and 850 psi and we added 3 shims to it. From what I was able to discern from various on-line videos, it appears that each shims should be worth around 150 lbs., but I have no way to measure output currently. I want to avoid making any major mistakes and blowing up my equipment.

Anyone out there know for sure what the increments are?

[athomas]

Two things can cause short stroking, a level 10 carrier oring that is out of tune, or too many shims in the ULT.

If the ULT has too many shims installed, it allows air to stop the bolt before it resets. If you are lucky, it can still reset but the total time to reset becomes longer, so the recharge time available before the next trigger pull is reduced. A reduced air charge causes massive shoot down, a cough, or it won't fire at all.

If the carrier oring is out of tune, the extra friction slows down the bolt movement and the recharge time available before the next trigger pull is reduced.

Since you have a retro on-off assembly, install it. Then tune your level 10 setup. Start by removing all the level 10 shims from the powertube. You won't need them. Then install the largest carrier that does not leak with your white carrier oring. Always use the same oring in each carrier that you install. The carriers work by changing the inner diameter of the oring and therefore the tension on the bolt stem. That is why it is important to always use the same oring each time.

Once you get the level 10 fully tuned, reinstall the ULT. Starting at 4, add ULT shims one at a time until you get runaway trigger bounce or bolt stick. When that happens, remove the shim that caused it and you are good to go. Remember, ULT shims are 0.005" thick and level 10 shims are 0.010" thick, so 1 level 10 shim equals 2 ULT shims.

[38super]

Very interesting. I had it exactly wrong, thinking that extra shims increased reactivity and decreased short-stroking. I'm pretty sure the L-10 is correctly tuned but I'll run this protocol anyway just to make sure. It's as it came from AGD.

Any issues using trigger stops? Damage to sear etc.?

Thanks for the help.

[Ando]

Any issues using trigger stops? Damage to sear etc.?

None at all.


AGD basically does a general tuning. Fine tuning is left to the owner and is not hard at all to accomplish. 10-20 min of your time setting it up to your liking and no need to touch it for years to come.

[38super]

Excellent. Just went down and tuned the l-10 and it definitely seems better. Removed three shims and increased to the next size carrier so the bolt has less drag. Trigger screws are nice and close so I'm thinking it'll be able to test it lot better over the weekend when I can get some air.

[athomas]

Very interesting. I had it exactly wrong, thinking that extra shims increased reactivity and decreased short-stroking.

You weren't wrong. The extra shims do exactly what you expected up to a point. Each shim shortens the distance between where the sear catches the bolt and on-off releases air to the front chamber. The shorter distance increases the amount of time available for recharging the front chamber and increases increases reactivity due to the on-off assembly being able to easily toggle the on-off/sear release between open and closed position without much restriction. When too many shims are installed, the on-off opens too soon and releases air before the bolt is reset when rapid firing.

As Ando mentioned, most mags come from AGD with a generic level 10 tuning that works in most instances. However, if you want optimum performance, you need to fine tune the operation to reduce friction on the bolt.

[38super]

Good to know. Currently no L-10 shims and 4 shims on the ULT. I'll try shimming it up to the sweet spot when I get some air. Last question to shore up my understanding of all this: will adding input pressure just add another unnecessary variable or is there any mileage in it vis-a-vis reactivity on the ULT? I'm looking for short snappy reactive trigger reset without having it running away. One pull/one shot.

My working theory right now is that adding pressure will let me gain some measure of reactivity with minimal shimming, thus decreasing the short-stroke window. Is this correct? I don't want to damage my regulator by doing this either.

Sorry for all the questions.

[Loneassassin]

Good to know. Currently no L-10 shims and 4 shims on the ULT. I'll try shimming it up to the sweet spot when I get some air. Last question to shore up my understanding of all this: will adding input pressure just add another unnecessary variable or is there any mileage in it vis-a-vis reactivity on the ULT? I'm looking for short snappy reactive trigger reset without having it running away. One pull/one shot.

My working theory right now is that adding pressure will let me gain some measure of reactivity with minimal shimming, thus decreasing the short-stroke window. Is this correct? I don't want to damage my regulator by doing this either.

Sorry for all the questions.

Another thing worth noting is that by playing around with the tension of your trigger frame screws, particularly your field-strip screw, you can often improve conditions. Mine, for example, does not like it if I over tighten my field strip screw - the ULT does not reset properly. But if I set it just snug, everything is beautiful.

I don't think a huge amount of pressure is what is needed in your case, unless you're dead set on getting it to RT. I think the lvl 10 and ULT tuning is what will fix the problem for you. Mine is pneumag'd now, but before I did that I could still shoot 10-11bps with 4 shims in my ULT, no RT effect, and not walking the trigger. It should have a VERY nice trigger pull if everything is working properly. I remember mine would RT at about 10bps if I put my 1000psi output tank on it, but I didn't really want the RT effect. 850psi was all I needed for it to shoot as fast as I could pull the trigger. In fact, now that it is pneumag'd, I still feed it 850psi and it's good for 13-15bps without chuffing as long as I pull the trigger correctly, lol.

[38super]

Another thing worth noting is that by playing around with the tension of your trigger frame screws, particularly your field-strip screw, you can often improve conditions. Mine, for example, does not like it if I over tighten my field strip screw - the ULT does not reset properly. But if I set it just snug, everything is beautiful.

I don't think a huge amount of pressure is what is needed in your case, unless you're dead set on getting it to RT. I think the lvl 10 and ULT tuning is what will fix the problem for you. Mine is pneumag'd now, but before I did that I could still shoot 10-11bps with 4 shims in my ULT, no RT effect, and not walking the trigger. It should have a VERY nice trigger pull if everything is working properly. I remember mine would RT at about 10bps if I put my 1000psi output tank on it, but I didn't really want the RT effect. 850psi was all I needed for it to shoot as fast as I could pull the trigger. In fact, now that it is pneumag'd, I still feed it 850psi and it's good for 13-15bps without chuffing as long as I pull the trigger correctly, lol.

Yes, I made the mistake of over-tightening the frame screw and the gun wouldn't shoot at all. Took me a while to "Occam's Razor" out the solution. Backed it out and all is good now in that regard.

I don't really want to set the gun up to RT, as that is functionally full-auto in my mind. If I can get to a rate of 10 bps without short-stroking I will be more than happy. If I can't do what I need to do with that rate of fire I think I need to look at my playing technique rather than my trigger speed.

Interestingly, I've had a Level 7 mag for years...bought it new. It's been so hassle free I've never really had to delve into it other than cleaning and changing the reg seal a couple of times. Not bad for what, 17 or 18 years? But this new gun is a different animal. I'm learning though.

Thanks so much for the help.

[athomas]

The ULT is more particular in its tuning. If you just want reliability and don't mind a stiffer trigger (half of what the standard automag is), then perhaps the retro on-off assembly is your thing. Its all I use. I do have the ULT, but never bothered getting my older retro valve milled out to accept it, because my retro on-off just works so nice.

If the tank you are using is 1000psi, then it is plenty high. Short stroking should not be an issue. People use the ultra high input pressures to get uber reactivity, more like semi controllable full auto.

[38super]

The ULT is more particular in its tuning. If you just want reliability and don't mind a stiffer trigger (half of what the standard automag is), then perhaps the retro on-off assembly is your thing. Its all I use. I do have the ULT, but never bothered getting my older retro valve milled out to accept it, because my retro on-off just works so nice.

If the tank you are using is 1000psi, then it is plenty high. Short stroking should not be an issue. People use the ultra high input pressures to get uber reactivity, more like semi controllable full auto.

I'm just guessing right now on the pressure. I've had different people offer different opinions on how much pressure each additional shim is worth but I have no hard numbers. I hope to get it measured this weekend. Frankly, I would prefer less pressure if I can get the feel I want. That way I can use the same tank on my Cocker without having to tear it down and re-shim.

You may be right on the RT on/off thing and I'm trending in that direction. I'm going to work a bit with both and see what makes the most sense. I've been trying to get the ULT to feel/pull more like my competition guns, but I'm thinking that is probably a pipe dream.

[athomas]

What is the trigger pull force required to fire your competition guns?

[38super]

What is the trigger pull force required to fire your competition guns?

I have them set at 20 oz. with very sort over-travel for quick reset. It's set up for a bio-feedback approach so that during rapid fire strings the finger never leaves the surface of the trigger. In other words, I never slap the trigger; always prep and squeeze even at speed. It's an ingrained response so you can see why I'm struggling a bit with the Mag.