AutoMag NOOB

[athomas]

You can move the sear arm back as far as you want. As long as the linkage is parallel, the moment acting on the sear will be the same. If the arm is fixed to the sear, then the farther you get away from the pivot point, the more it will cause movement in the perpendicular direction as well, which is what you don't want. So, if you want to have an arm that is fixed to the sear, you may need to change the angle of pull if the arm relocation is a long way from the original position. If you just want to move the arm for use with a trigger farther back, use a linkage and another arm farther back.

[biggy238]

Works

I got my ULT in from tuna and put it together. Took about two hours to troubleshoot a slight error in my sear design. I got it gassed up (on all 500psi of CO2) and had it trying to cycle on the spyder frame. It fired a puff and tried to kick the bolt out. I put the old worn bolt spring back in and got it to hit a little better. I played with it down to 200psi and it layed down on me.

I have to get an air source some time this week to continue. I will post a picture of the sear when i take it back down. Until then, That's a $50 classic mag, , ~$50 for the ULT and $67 on the spyder frame and Dye stickies. And time. I picked up a CP barrel kit on here, ordered some tippmann backs so my brother and I can use it on our 3 guns.

I want to post the sear because it isn't like any of the others i've found in any of the spyder mag threads. I'm worried that with a full air charge on it, the ult will have too much pressure for the spyder frame to overcome. Just have to get a good pic of it.

[Spider-TW]

Thanks for the feedback. I thought it was a little cold in here at first.
Kyle

Sear mods and ULTs in a classic valve are definitely not the place to start for most mag noobs, but you are obviously off to a good start. Both of those are things that "can" be done, but most of us just stay away from them.

The inner o-ring on ULTs can get finicky on old lube, which gets in the way when people buy used ULTs to go in a classic. When the o-ring gets old and hard, it can bind the ULT altogether, relative to the top pressure. Just something to keep in mind for a few years from now.

You would think sears would be simple, but AGD went through a good bit of work to get the balance of hardness and strength right. The loose sear pin on the AM/MM rail kind of limits the usable geometry as well.

Looking forward to pics of your sear.

[biggy238]

Sear mods and ULTs in a classic valve are definitely not the place to start for most mag noobs, but you are obviously off to a good start. Both of those are things that "can" be done, but most of us just stay away from them.

The inner o-ring on ULTs can get finicky on old lube, which gets in the way when people buy used ULTs to go in a classic. When the o-ring gets old and hard, it can bind the ULT altogether, relative to the top pressure. Just something to keep in mind for a few years from now.

You would think sears would be simple, but AGD went through a good bit of work to get the balance of hardness and strength right. The loose sear pin on the AM/MM rail kind of limits the usable geometry as well.

Looking forward to pics of your sear.

I've been running Marvel Mystery Oil air tool oil since it was available at work. It keeps our various brands of high end air tools alive and happy so I thought I would try it in my pea shooters. I popped for a new ULT. I was kinda worried about the fact that the body of the ult isn't fully threaded.

I agree on the rockwell on the sear. It appears they only treated about .001 to .0015. just enough to keep it alive. The sear pin on mine actually is a tight fit into the rail. It looks like the previous owner(s) did something to knurl the aluminum of the rail. It;s a PITA to get the pin in and out, but the sear hole dia is over a bit and is loose.

Anyone got a good read on tuning and what i'm looking for? Obviously I can't tune with no power source but I can read furiously.

As for the automag noob thing. This is my first mag. I got in it in 97 with a BE talon at age 14. Saved up the christmas money and bought a BE stingray and played for 3 months on that. Modded it as far as it was gonna go pretty quickly. My brother and I both bought T98's in early 98 that we both still play with today. Mine was a 32 degrees edition 98 and his was and still is completely stock bodied. I've fixed all kinds of blowback semis and read through tech on all kinds of guns. I got out in 2003 or 04 and started playing again last fall. We play until we get mad, tired or broke and then go home.

[Flatliner333]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=43538 <- Have you looked here.

[Spider-TW]

I agree on the rockwell on the sear. It appears they only treated about .001 to .0015. just enough to keep it alive.

Yeah. There was a series of very hard RT sears that would break at the bushing hole. Apparently those were a little too brittle and the previous treatment seemed to come back. It's in AO here somewhere. Every now and then, someone will try to adjust their trigger pull by shaping the sear with a file. Once that outer layer is gone, they tend to wear quickly.

Iirc, the yellow is a cadmium coating for corrosion, protecting the heat treated layer.

[biggy238]

I'm gonna have to pull out some tricks to treat this sear when i go for a final production part. I have a notion to move on to what hill was discussing with the vertical clippard ram.

Anyone have some good reading on dwell settings needed for a spydermag? I'm thinking about an upgrade board with eyes, drilling some holes and making my own eye covers. (unless someone has a link for some)

Even if I get this thing working nasty i'm still probably gonna play with my cro-mag 98. LOL Just put this one on a shelf and tell people to look at it.

[Spider-TW]

Anyone have some good reading on dwell settings needed for a spydermag? I'm thinking about an upgrade board with eyes, drilling some holes and making my own eye covers. (unless someone has a link for some)

Search Hill's threads for his coverless eyes. Lukes customs may still have some eye covers (?). P8ntbal4me had some a while back (same?). By the time I get to eyes, I have switched marker types.

Iirc, classic valve total cycle time is around 60-65 msec, including bolt travel and recharge. RT types run around 30-35 msec. The bolt travel time is about 7-10 msec, depending on velocity (chamber pressure) and bolt spring. Even though the sear is designed for the bolt to ride on it when you let go of the trigger early, most people try to keep the solenoid dwell longer than the bolt travel. I set mine at 10 msec with no problems. Look for some "AGD" and "TK" references. There are at least some second hand notes in here about cycle time. "the electrician" had some nice posts way back on a hyper frame. "Hilltop Customs" built a UTB EP and may have some dwell notes as well.

[biggy238]

Search Hill's threads for his coverless eyes. Lukes customs may still have some eye covers (?). P8ntbal4me had some a while back (same?). By the time I get to eyes, I have switched marker types.

Iirc, classic valve total cycle time is around 60-65 msec, including bolt travel and recharge. RT types run around 30-35 msec. The bolt travel time is about 7-10 msec, depending on velocity (chamber pressure) and bolt spring. Even though the sear is designed for the bolt to ride on it when you let go of the trigger early, most people try to keep the solenoid dwell longer than the bolt travel. I set mine at 10 msec with no problems. Look for some "AGD" and "TK" references. There are at least some second hand notes in here about cycle time. "the electrician" had some nice posts way back on a hyper frame. "Hilltop Customs" built a UTB EP and may have some dwell notes as well.

Thank You

I have an issue with the ULT that i need some insight with. I tried to set it up with the spyder frame which was nothing but fail. I pulled it apart and installed the stock sear in the rail and tested it with no trigger frame. It acts like the ult isnt pushing on the sear hard enough to seat the bolt and recharge. Is this something i've done and how do i correct? i have all of the shims installed because it wouldn;t attempt to cycle with anything less, and it looks to me like it needs one or two more shims? I need to study a rendering of how the gun cycles. I know I found one when i first joined the site.

Gun works fine on the stock trigger and stock sear/frame.

its been an interesting learning experience at the least.

[Spider-TW]

Thank You

I have an issue with the ULT that i need some insight with. I tried to set it up with the spyder frame which was nothing but fail. I pulled it apart and installed the stock sear in the rail and tested it with no trigger frame. It acts like the ult isnt pushing on the sear hard enough to seat the bolt and recharge. Is this something i've done and how do i correct? i have all of the shims installed because it wouldn;t attempt to cycle with anything less, and it looks to me like it needs one or two more shims? I need to study a rendering of how the gun cycles. I know I found one when i first joined the site.

Gun works fine on the stock trigger and stock sear/frame.

its been an interesting learning experience at the least.

Actually, that's the typical problem with ULTs and classics. They reset, kind of. That needle size shaft means a piddlin' amount of reset force. People have gotten them to work for a while with a max amount of shims (where you have to stuff the valve in the body).

Before you give up tho, try putting a bright polish on the top of the sear (under the on/off pin) and on the bottom of the on/off pin itself. Some times those surfaces (mainly the sear) have machine marks in them. Don't throw the last piddle away on that bit of friction. Add a layer of grease. It's also worth about a shims worth of height (like adding a 0.005 shim), to polish just those marks out. I don't see any extra wear from this either. I don't expect any since the force there is light.

Make sure that tiny o-ring inside the ULT body has oil as well. When it gets old and dry, it can hold everything up.

[biggy238]

Actually, that's the typical problem with ULTs and classics. They reset, kind of. That needle size shaft means a piddlin' amount of reset force. People have gotten them to work for a while with a max amount of shims (where you have to stuff the valve in the body).

Before you give up tho, try putting a bright polish on the top of the sear (under the on/off pin) and on the bottom of the on/off pin itself. Some times those surfaces (mainly the sear) have machine marks in them. Don't throw the last piddle away on that bit of friction. Add a layer of grease. It's also worth about a shims worth of height (like adding a 0.005 shim), to polish just those marks out. I don't see any extra wear from this either. I don't expect any since the force there is light.

Make sure that tiny o-ring inside the ULT body has oil as well. When it gets old and dry, it can hold everything up.

Cool. I'll lube it up. Anyone had any results from di-electric grease? Not sure how it will react to the temp involved

One could increase force by cutting a cone shape onto the top of the pin and then adjusting accordingly, but i'm not sure what affect that would have on the on/off cycle.

So, when this pin is up, it's sealed, and symultaneously releases the bolt to fire the charge the ULT just metered out. releasing the trigger allows the force above the ult assembly to act on the pin, forcing it down, resetting the bolt and charging the (??? noob here) to allow another shot. I don;t have enough force to cycle the bolt, or reset the sear because the classic valve can;t keep up? what is it that the classic doesn;t inherently function well with? I tried screwing the body of the ult appart and installing it, making it affectively longer. I'm going to try and set it up on just the stock sear and then move on to the modded one.

Thank you very much for you input.
Kyle

[biggy238]

Cool. I'll lube it up. Anyone had any results from di-electric grease? Not sure how it will react to the temp involved

One could increase force by cutting a cone shape onto the top of the pin and then adjusting accordingly, but i'm not sure what affect that would have on the on/off cycle.

So, when this pin is up, it's sealed, and symultaneously releases the bolt to fire the charge the ULT just metered out. releasing the trigger allows the force above the ult assembly to act on the pin, forcing it down, resetting the bolt and charging the (??? noob here) to allow another shot. I don;t have enough force to cycle the bolt, or reset the sear because the classic valve can;t keep up? what is it that the classic doesn;t inherently function well with? I tried screwing the body of the ult appart and installing it, making it affectively longer. I'm going to try and set it up on just the stock sear and then move on to the modded one.

Thank you very much for you input.
Kyle

EDIT: ok i'm sitting here and figured out what was happening last night. It's not the sear that is having trouble. My air valve is backing away from the main tube. When it;s up tight, this thing fires and so-on. when the valve is back away from the tube, maybe a hacksaw blade width back, it screws up.

What's the significance of this? It seems like I would be able to change and internal dimension and account for this?

[athomas]

Pushing the valve forward changes where the on-off pin contacts the back of the sear and where the sear contacts the bolt. If it doesn't leak out the front, then the bolt part shouldn't be an issue. If the pin does not contact the back of the sear exactly in the center, it may be binding a bit. This could happen when the sear starts to rotate and the bottom of the pin is not perfectly flat on the contact surface.

The ULT having a smaller diameter on the top of the pin than a standard classic on-off pin results in a small force pushing on the top of the pin. This is in part due to the air entering the front chamber being regulated to a lower value than the output of the supply. The amount of pressure exerted on the top of the pin to start the movement of the sear is the difference between the regulated AIR valve pressure and the residual chamber pressure following a shot. This pressure difference multiplied by the diameter of the pin results in an impulse force applied to the top of the pin. This impulse force starts the motion of the sear to be reset. If the sear is heavy or has any friction, then the low force applied to the top of the ULT may not push the sear with the amount of required force to reset it. This is especially critical if the sear contacts the bolt before it is fully reset, either due to slight bolt stick or some other factor such as too many ULT shims. Once the top of the ULT clears the sealing oring, and the momentum of the pin disappears due to friction or some other means, then the remaining pin force pushing on the sear is a product of the chamber pressure and the smaller diameter of the lower small section of the on-off pin. This force is very small, which is why the sear movement must be very clean and friction free. This is also why it is critical to time any electronic dwell to hold the on-off pin in until the bolt has fully reset. This allows the initial impulse to push the pin and maintain movement to fully reset the sear without interference. For manual frames, a quick release of the trigger is critical. This is easier if the bolt and carrier setup is tuned for minimal cycle time, which means there must be no overlap from the ULT to allow air before the bolt resets and the carrier oring must not put any additional friction on the bolt stem.

[Spider-TW]

EDIT: ok i'm sitting here and figured out what was happening last night. It's not the sear that is having trouble. My air valve is backing away from the main tube. When it;s up tight, this thing fires and so-on. when the valve is back away from the tube, maybe a hacksaw blade width back, it screws up.

What's the significance of this? It seems like I would be able to change and internal dimension and account for this?

Make sure you have the rail bushing in place. It helps maintain that spacing. It's a little copper colored and slit tube that goes in the hole of the frame and rail for the field strip screw. A missing one is just trouble. They often turn up missing on old used mags. I often wonder how many people sell their mags because they quit working right, after they lost the bushing.

Looks like this

[biggy238]

Knockin'em out one at a time. The bushing is in. I switched over to my spyder frame. I tinkered with it and got no-where. I put just the sear in the rail and bolted it all up. I figured out that the knob that the on/off hits on the sear was taller than i thought initially on my built sear. I filed it down and put everything together and then ran out of gas. If I can get the proper range of motion out of the on off pin I should have something by the end of the weekend.