X Valve / Level 10 /ULT sillyness

[Stealthpanda]

Soo.... X valve purchased used... with a level 10 bolt, .5 carrier, no shims. ULT with what appears to be 2-3 ult shims and 1-2 level 10 shims. Just a few questions...
When I "short stroke" the trigger, finger in the breach, it doesn't recock. That sound normal? If I perform a crisp, full, trigger pull, with my finger in the breach, it recocks most of the time. Its weird, even when it had 2 level 10 shims in the power tube it did the same thing. I was using a new tank, which was purchased without knowing if it was LP or HP (facepalm), but I installed a gauge and its reading 850+ so... it can't be that. Shrug, air is gone, I can fiddle with it more tomorrow.
Thanks,
Jason

[renie]

try another shim or 2 in your ULT

[need4reebs]

sounds like you were testing again w/o enough air in your tank?

[Stealthpanda]

Nah, had enough air. Have about 1k left, all these issues happened since 4k psi so /shrug. My only question is, why will more ULT shims affect bolt recock? Or normal operation, for that matter. It came with the valve, so its not a bad thing. I love the crazy light trigger pull.

[need4reebs]

wait your ULT has 2-3 ULT shims and 1-2 lvl 10 shims in it right now?

[Stealthpanda]

Yeah, they all don't look the same thickness. Took 1 of the odd ones out, and its as thick as the Level 10 ones. .01 thickness vs .005 I think?
Thanks,
Jason

[need4reebs]

see how it shoots w/o the odd ones..as you say?

the lvl 10 shims are twice tha thickness as tha ULT shims....so if you have 3 ULT shims and 2 LvL 10 shims in tha ULT thats tha same as 7 shims in your ULT which is too many and can cause ya some problems.

[Stealthpanda]

O... will try tomorrow.
Thanks again,
Jason

EDIT: I had, earlier, 2 Level 10 (4) and 2 ULT (2) making a total of 6 shims, theoretically. The trigger pull was crazy light, but upon obstruction would not recock at times. I have removed 1 ULT (1) shim dropping the count down to 5. Oddly enough, I wasn't noticing the full auto/running away people mentioned, I WAS however having the gun fire upon airing it up. Safety was on, happened everytime. O_O This sounds ULT related, fully.
I am reading the ULT sticky from blackvcg, and even on the first page I am noticing the issues people had, very similar to mine. This is always good news.

[athomas]

Roll back to about 3 ULT shims to start. If you still have recocking issues, then it is level 10 related. You should remove all of the level 10 shims from your level 10 setup as well. They won't affect how it works and its ability to recock. If the level 10 won't recock with only 3 ULT shims installed, then your carrier size is too tight.

[Laku]

The problem can also in some case be too tight or loose field strip screw.

[Stealthpanda]

Meh, This doesn't feel like a carrier size that is too tight. This appears to be short stroking. Full length trigger pulls re-cock with no issue. I do have a chuffing issue from time to time, nothing in the breach, and sometimes the recock is delayed when I get on the trigger. Probably not full trigger pulls (short stroking). A suction sound is heard, stops within 1 second or so, then the gun recocks. 1 Level 10 shim, 1 ULT shim (3). Picking up an RT on/off and this will tell me more. Ill-tuned ULT or not.
Thanks,
Jason

[athomas]

How old is your bolt spring? A worn bolt spring can cause issues like you are describing.

[Stealthpanda]

The one I was using came with the bolt. It still extends past the bolt tip itself when installed onto the bolt, but I cannot verify if its new(er). I believe at one point I tried putting a new spring in it, but still probably had way too many shims for it to matter. I could try that though.
Thanks,
Jason

[Stealthpanda]

Carrier has to be too tight now. Won't recock sometimes, after a short stroke. IIRC, any pressure needed to push the bolt onto the power tube assembly means too tight, correct? I need to give AGD tech a call, because there is something I am clearly not getting, and am thoroughly frustrated because of it.
Thanks,
Jason

[athomas]

When tuning your level 10, remove all the shims from the powertube before starting. They don't affect the operation but they can cause false leaks which cause you to use a carrier size that is too tight. Don't put them back when you are done. You shouldn't ever need them.

For carrier sizing:

Find the carrier size that causes the installed oring to fit freely over the bolt stem. The carrier should sit on the bolt stem without moving if the bolt is held in a vertical position. If you tap the valve on a hard surface, the carrier should be loose enough to allow the bolt to move. If you have to force the carrier onto the bolt stem with any force at all, then it is too tight. Install the bolt and valve into the gun. When aired up there should be no leaking. If it leaks, take the carrier out and replace it with the next smaller size. Always use the same white carrier oring in each carrier that you use. It is the oring that you are adjusting. Try it again. You want to use the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak.

Any time that the gun fires and does not reset or short strokes and does not reset, or just chuffs and does not reset, the problem is most likely a carrier that is too tight. Installing shims will not help. Shims only help if the bolt moves, hits an object but does not vent any air, and then cannot reset because the chamber is still fully charged. Most of the time the bolt always moves far enough to expose the vent hole, get rid of excess air, and then reset.

For spring adjustment:

You want to use the bolt spring that allows you to shoot about 20fps above the lowest velocity that the gun will cycle at. So, if you want to use the gun at 280fps, then your desired lower limit of operation is 260fps. Insert your long bolt spring. Turn the velocity adjuster down before you air up the valve. Then gradually turn up the velocity until the gun will cycle. This is your lower velocity. Measure it. If it is above 265fps, then you will need a shorter spring or you will need to clip the one you have (unless you have red one. They are usually in the correct range). If you clip a spring, only clip half a coil at a time and then try it using the same procedure of starting with a low velocity setting. Make sure you put the cut end of the spring towards the bolt. If you have the short spring installed, and the lower range is 30fps below the desired shooting velocity, I wouldn't worry about using a stiffer spring and would just go with the short bolt spring. If it was much lower than that, I would definitely clip a long spring to get closer to the desired range.