Does a Level 7 bolt require a heavier trigger pull vs a Level 10 bolt?

[Pneumagger]

All else being equal, does a level 7 bolt setup produce a heavier trigger when compared to a properly installed Level 10? In theory, with the Level 10 having less initial forward force on the sear, I would think the level 10 unlatches from the sear more easily... but does this translate to reality? Or s it insignificant?

Because if there's no appreciable difference, I would think a Level 7 wouldn't be a bad choice given modern loader feed rates that would be difficult to outshoot (Rotor II, Pinokio Speed, Qloader, etc). So a Level 7 should be faster at the top end of the BPS scale compared to the LX (giving a loader more open breech time to feed) and there obviously much fewer tuning and bolt stick issues for the electro/pneu mag enthusiasts.

Basically, distilled down to the core of my reasoning, why choose LX (and any of it's headaches) over a level 7 with a modern super-loader.

[ScottyBeans]

You make some good points. Not sure on the trigger pull difference, but I'd wager it would be insignificant.

The real question is: is the L10 worth the 'headaches' now that loaders can reliably keep up?

I'd say with brittle, tournament paint, it's still worth it, since the acceleration profile is better. But for recreational to mid-range paint? Sure, why not?

Maybe I'll give it a shot at some point. One of my xvalves has some bolt stick issues (I'm sure it's the carrier o-ring swelling or something, but I don't have the next carrier up so I'd have to order it).

[Pneumagger]

Is it easy to get Level 7 Foamie Bolts these days? Personally, I think a lightened Level 7 bolt that was equipped with a LX foamie and would be a nice option for people with adequate loaders running pneumatics or who simply want less tuning.

Not that I think LX tuning is difficult (it's really simple). But sometimes, a plug and play option is what the doctor ordered.

[blackdeath1k]

My rt has a L7 with a rotor loader. My wife has a LX with a halo loader. If your a player that doesn't do the 20bps stuff. And you just do hit and miss 8-10 bps. The L7 is no issue at all. At least it never has been for me. If you like the machine gun effect I'd stick with a LX. I will say every now and then I've had a hiccup with a deformed ball or something and got a chop from that. With the LX there would have been a chance for a chuff instead of a chop. As for trigger feel on the 2. I can't really tell a difference.

[nak81783]

I can tell no difference in trigger pull.

Recoil difference is noticeable, since the Level 7 is heavier. However, you can shoot a little lower into the tank psi, since it runs at a lower pressure. There's a trade off there.

I thought I read somewhere in the AGD documents not to use Level 7s on X-Valves, so I simply use the gold spring and largest carrier that doesn't leak in my Level 10s. If I ever start chopping or breaking paint, it's a quick spring change to help with that.

[Pneumagger]

I thought about using a lyman trigger pull gauge, but the RT kickback pretty much ruins getting an accurate pull reading. I suppose a good test might be to use an ElectroPneumatic frame set to the minimum pressure & dwell that will barely actuate a valve with well tuned L10 bolt... and then drop in the L7 bolt to see if there's a measureable pressure or significant dwell increase required. Any volunteers?

I had planned on doing this once I get my current EP project further along, but I'm still a good ways off from that point. If it works well, I wanted to use a the L7 bolt unless since my project will be Qloaded (no chance of outrunning that thing). I guess the only real variable after that decision is can I shoot good paint that won't be blended by the L7 bolt.

[Pneumagger]

I can tell no difference in trigger pull.

Recoil difference is noticeable, since the Level 7 is heavier. However, you can shoot a little lower into the tank psi, since it runs at a lower pressure. There's a trade off there.

I thought I read somewhere in the AGD documents not to use Level 7s on X-Valves, so I simply use the gold spring and largest carrier that doesn't leak in my Level 10s. If I ever start chopping or breaking paint, it's a quick spring change to help with that.

Another good point, nak. The L7 requires lower pressure (shorter recharge time) so that's another reason an L7 equipped valve should cycle even faster. Although, at that point it's probably academic because even if a loader can handle it, nobody is going to be shooting 26+ bps in a game, let alone notice a difference of a few more bps increase from there. (...or could I? )

I don't imagine discouraging L7 use on an Xvalve is due to a battering issue on the aluminum valve because there is still a bumper and the LX return spring is stronger too. If it's not a battering issue I would guess it's a liability issue in that, since all Xvalves are designed for LX, their pressure envelopes are higher and cranking up on Xvalve velocity with a L7 might cause "unsafe" velocities before encountering rear reg/valve venting. Then again, if it is a battering issue... go buy a ReTro Valve.

[Cyco-Dude]

All else being equal, does a level 7 bolt setup produce a heavier trigger when compared to a properly installed Level 10?

no difference in trigger pull from what i can tell. the level 10 is still another safety net to prevent chops. ask yourself this; why do modern electronic markers have eyes? shouldn't they be unneeded since we have 20+ bps loaders?

[Pneumagger]

There's no disadvantage to having eyes, really. And if there's a problem, turn them off. So there's no reason not to have them.

From a raw speed and tuning perspective, L7 may offer an advantage... so I'm reconsidering the usefulness of LX with modern loaders in mind. But for pneumatic builds, I was curious if lpr pressure might need increased due to greater bolt-sear engagement force.

[athomas]

The level 10 bolt comes into its own when the loader gets low and the ball stack is not tight. With a level 7 bolt, you almost always get a chop if you fire a high bps string in those conditions, especially if the gun is not held perfectly level.

The level 7 bolt operates at a lower chamber pressure than the level 10 bolt. This causes the force on the on-off pin to be greater on the level 10 setup than on the level 7 setup. The level 10 bolt offers less force pushing on the sear. So, is the reduction in forward bolt force on the sear and its effect on the trigger pull offset by the increased force on the on-off pin when using the level 10 bolt? If you use a barrel that pushes your mag farther away from its most efficient operation, then the level 10 chamber pressure increases and the force on the on-off pin is increased which increases the trigger pull force. The level 7 chamber pressure goes up too, but not by as much so there is less increase in force for the on-off pin, but there is also an increase in the forward bolt force which increases the friction of the sear which increases the pull force.

The end result is that there probably isn't enough difference to notice for the average user.

[JKR]

All this talk of going back to a L7 from a L10 bolt reaffirms my decision to never stop using the L7 bolt. I love the simplicity and honestly don't have many chopping issues if the paint isn't super brittle. Valken Graffiti shoots great through my Mags!

[nak81783]

Bring back the Superbolt, sans the shrapnel flying out the barrel. It's the best of both worlds except no anti-chop/break capabilities.

[Nobody]

1) the spring or bolt has nothing to do with the trigger pull. The pull is dictated by the on/off or the force needed to turn off the flow of air to the dump chamber. This is why on a classic valve you can change the on/off assembly to a RT, and it lightens it.

2)the L7 can go as fast as you want it too. Remember, the RT RoF test was with a L7 bolt. Yes, the Uberloader used in that test was genesis for the Halo and other forcefeed loaders we know today.

Now here comes the theorem. This will consider that all paint is perfectly round, fresh and will not break in the barrel.

You need a loader to be able to keep up with the max RoF of the gun. Any slip of the loading speed and the sustained(that is the key here for both) RoF of the gun, & you will have a missfeed/half shot which basically results in a chop. A forceceed loader solves this, by hopefully feeding faster than a gun could shot, thus maintaining a ball always being in the breech, ready to shoot. Hence why a revy can keep up with short strings on a RT mag and why people used tall stacks of oaint to help have a ball ready to fall into the breech, but why you shoot long strings of paint, there is a higher chance of a chop. If you think of it like a manual transmission for a car. When you engage the clutch to change the gear at the right RPM. Everything moves smoothly, as it should. But if you shift without the clutch or change into the wrong gear, bad stuff happens.

3) the L10 does slow the bolt speed down, very slightly. I wish i had the numbers but it is just what others have said. Even if it is slower, the gun can only shoot as fast as you can feed paint in. If you are cycling the bolt at say 25bps, if you use a revy it will feed at 12bps. You will chop. The L10 does help prevent this, as we all know. The advantage of the L10 over eyes is that eyes can get blocked and they can get fooled. The L10 is mechanical, so there is nothing that stop it from working. If there is a problem with chuffing then you need to determine where the problem is and fine tune the L10 for that. But the beauty of the L10 is that is that "chuff" a chuff or the bolt doing its job?

4)if you think of the L10 as a failsafe measure, then its no doubt it is the way to go. If you eliminate a possible problem, then as good as the L7 is at simpicity, the L10 is at the paragon of being the best and most useful thing to do. The possible loss of speed at the high end of RoF is not significant if you can not reach that limit, or feed paint in that fast.

So, get a L10 and you can use any loader you want, at any bps you fire. Keep the L7 and the incremental gains in speed or simpicity of use will go into the time spent cleaning that 1% break you will invariably get.

[Spider-TW]

1) the spring or bolt has nothing to do with the trigger pull. The pull is dictated by the on/off or the force needed to turn off the flow of air to the dump chamber. This is why on a classic valve you can change the on/off assembly to a RT, and it lightens it.

2)the L7 can go as fast as you want it too. Remember, the RT RoF test was with a L7 bolt. Yes, the Uberloader used in that test was genesis for the Halo and other forcefeed loaders we know today.

Now here comes the theorem. This will consider that all paint is perfectly round, fresh and will not break in the barrel.

You need a loader to be able to keep up with the max RoF of the gun. Any slip of the loading speed and the sustained(that is the key here for both) RoF of the gun, & you will have a missfeed/half shot which basically results in a chop. A forceceed loader solves this, by hopefully feeding faster than a gun could shot, thus maintaining a ball always being in the breech, ready to shoot. Hence why a revy can keep up with short strings on a RT mag and why people used tall stacks of oaint to help have a ball ready to fall into the breech, but why you shoot long strings of paint, there is a higher chance of a chop. If you think of it like a manual transmission for a car. When you engage the clutch to change the gear at the right RPM. Everything moves smoothly, as it should. But if you shift without the clutch or change into the wrong gear, bad stuff happens.

3) the L10 does slow the bolt speed down, very slightly. I wish i had the numbers but it is just what others have said. Even if it is slower, the gun can only shoot as fast as you can feed paint in. If you are cycling the bolt at say 25bps, if you use a revy it will feed at 12bps. You will chop. The L10 does help prevent this, as we all know. The advantage of the L10 over eyes is that eyes can get blocked and they can get fooled. The L10 is mechanical, so there is nothing that stop it from working. If there is a problem with chuffing then you need to determine where the problem is and fine tune the L10 for that. But the beauty of the L10 is that is that "chuff" a chuff or the bolt doing its job?

4)if you think of the L10 as a failsafe measure, then its no doubt it is the way to go. If you eliminate a possible problem, then as good as the L7 is at simpicity, the L10 is at the paragon of being the best and most useful thing to do. The possible loss of speed at the high end of RoF is not significant if you can not reach that limit, or feed paint in that fast.

So, get a L10 and you can use any loader you want, at any bps you fire. Keep the L7 and the incremental gains in speed or simpicity of use will go into the time spent cleaning that 1% break you will invariably get.

5) The only time you are using a good, steady rate of fire is when you are really working the field, and that is probably the only time you would ever let your loader get low. Hence, if you are looking for dependability at high rof, a L10 helps a lot. Otherwise, you are likely to get a "PAf!" sound along with the final spin of your loader and end up clogged through the loader, in the middle of an intense duel with one or more of the opposition.

[nak81783]

I think the extra 100 or so shots a Level 7 gets by being able to operate at a lower pressure should not be overlooked. I'm not worried about ROF, but those extra shots can be important, especially when playing in the woods, filling from Scubas which obviously decline with each fill.