ULE Mag not firing

[pwidby]

I built a ULE Automag w/ a new Xvalve. It will air up but not fire. I shut the air off and took the grip frame off and the valve was still under pressure. I could push the on/ off pin and you could feel the pressure but it did nothing when I pushed it in except come right back out. Any ideas?
Thanks, Paul

[athomas]

I assume you mean you have a ULT installed. Or, do you mean you are just using ULE rail and aluminum body? There are a few things it could be.

If the trigger rod is in contact with the back of the trigger when you hold the trigger against the safety, it means the trigger rod is too long and won't allow the on-off to open. If there is a really large gap then it is too short, and the sear won't rotate far enough to release the bolt.

If the level 10 bolt isn't tuned so that it uses the largest carrier that doesn't produce a leak, it won't fire when you press the trigger and rotate the sear to release the bolt.

Check the velocity setting. A velocity setting that is too low may not have enough pressure to push the bolt forward.

Make sure you have enough shims installed in the ULT. Too few shim and and the on-off might not open when you release the trigger.

[rawbutter]

Check your tank too. Mags need more air than other high end markers to operate, about 800 psi.

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk

[pwidby]

I assume you mean you have a ULT installed. Or, do you mean you are just using ULE rail and aluminum body? There are a few things it could be.

If the trigger rod is in contact with the back of the trigger when you hold the trigger against the safety, it means the trigger rod is too long and won't allow the on-off to open. If there is a really large gap then it is too short, and the sear won't rotate far enough to release the bolt.

If the level 10 bolt isn't tuned so that it uses the largest carrier that doesn't produce a leak, it won't fire when you press the trigger and rotate the sear to release the bolt.

Check the velocity setting. A velocity setting that is too low may not have enough pressure to push the bolt forward.

Make sure you have enough shims installed in the ULT. Too few shim and and the on-off might not open when you release the trigger.

I don't think I have a ULT trigger. I purchased a new X valve from AGD and installed it in a ULE vertical main body. I took the rail and body of the trigger frame and the on/ off pin is sticking out about a 1/4" and it is under a lot of pressure. If I push the pin in it just comes right back out. Not sure why it won't discharge the air in the chamber?

[Laku]

Try cranking up the velocity, it can't discharge if the pressure isn't high enough to overcome the spring pressure. Like Athomas said.

[nak81783]

If putting it back together and turning up the velocity, as others have stated, doesn't resolve the issue, post a quick video of what you're doing to take the trigger frame off and of the on/off pin pushing back out after you push it in.

[Nobody]

What is the output pressure of your tank? You need 800psi into the valve. Also, if your tank is under 1k total preasure, the gun won't have enough asss to shoot. L10 valves need a lot of volume and pressure to work, so you won't be able to shoot deep into the tank like other guns. But, the ability to never chop paint is a huge plus.

Also, make sure that your field strip screw is more than nust finger tight. You also need the bushing in the rail to insure proper alignment of the gun and for it to be in shooting order.

[Loguzzzzzz]

First off a mag should fire all the way down to about 650 psi. Second if you are getting pressure feed back from the trigger and no fire the on/off pin is likely too long. The pin being too long will not allow the air to properly enter the "dump" chamber.

[athomas]

Install the valve into the gun without the bolt and spring. Hold the trigger in and turn the gas on. Slowly release the trigger. It should vent out the front since there is no bolt to hold the air back. You can stop the air venting by pulling the trigger back in. If it doesn't release air, then you know the on-off isn't opening. If it does release air, then you know your problem is not the on-off and is probably a bolt stick or alignment issue.

[pwidby]

I put the valve in w/o the bolt and spring and as long as I held the trigger it no longer leaked. I changed out the spacer for a shorter one and it seems to be working great. I will take it out this weekend and run some paint through it. Thanks everyone for your help!! Paul

[athomas]

Good to hear that it might be fixed.

[pwidby]

Oops, spoke to soon. Was shooting fine then it would rapid shoot and now it is locked up again. Sounds like I need to keep messing w/ the carriers? My other son has a Tac One and when I put his Xvalve in the ULE mag the ULE shoots great. So my plan is to take apart the Tac One valve and match the carriers and shims and set the velocity exactly what the Tac One is set at. Worst case I will be at Fox Paintball field this weekend and I will have Sandman take a look at it.

[Laku]

You need to tune the lvl 10 individually, can't copy it from other valve. You're tuning the O-ring with the carriers.

[ghost flanker]

The fact that it's, both, rapid firing and locking up is strange. Two different problems, maybe? Check that your sear is not worn, that your trigger rod is properly adjusted, that your detents are ok, and that your on/off pin is not damaged (I've seen RT on/off pins that were broken off at their tips, causing rapid fire). As for your level 10 issues, matching the Tac-One's carrier might work, but don't be confused if the issue isn't completely resolved after that. This is because no two o-rings are exactly the same size, especially ones that've been 'broken in' on a level 10 bolt. The typical scenario with tuning just the level 10 carrier/o-ring part, alone, goes something like this:

1.) install brand new o-ring with largest carrier that doesn't leak
2.) o-ring suddenly develops a leak after firing ~50-200 shots
3.) using the same o-ring (which is now broken in), replace carrier with next smallest carrier until leak stops again
4.) o-ring should be trouble free for the next 5-10 years

With all this being said, what bolt spring are you using? It sounds like your bolt spring is too long, as well. To ensure that at least your level 10 is healthy and not contributing to any malfunctions in the gun, I suggest that you start from the beginning. Don't worry, it's really not that difficult to tune a level 10 to peak performance on your own.

Before you start swapping out carriers and making blind velocity adjustments, you should always start off by installing the shortest bolt spring you have first, preferably a regular ol' level 7 bolt spring; it'll save you a LOT of trouble. By doing this, you ensure that the bolt spring isn't the culprit (it often is when the gun won't fire even though you can still feel pressure in the trigger). It's an equally good idea to remove all shims, as well.

With the smallest spring installed (for now), your next job is simply to make the bolt not leak. This is where your carrier selection comes in. Follow the 4 steps above. This is the trickiest part of tuning the level 10 because it'll often work fine for a short while and then start leaking again when the o-ring starts breaking in. If this happens after you've finished installing the shims and spring, remove all shims and revert back to the shortest spring again to start over. You'll thank yourself later.

Next, it's time to adjust how gentle the level 10 will be on paint. After adjusting your velocity to a proper setting (if needed), select the longest spring that will still allow the gun to fire. Just like with selecting a carrier, this may take a few tries. If you want to really fine tune the level 10 to be as gentle as possible for very brittle paint, you can take an overly long level 10 spring and trim it to just the right length until the gun is able to fire with it. Do this by cutting very small sections of the spring at a time. I tend to cut no more than 1/4 of a turn at a time. Remember, you can always shorten the spring more, but you can't undo a cut that's already been made, so don't get all Lorena Bobbitt here. Oh, and be sure to put the 'cut end' onto the bolt; the 'uncut end' of the spring should be facing out. Making the 'cut end' face out will cause problems.
-Note: Keep in mind that a longer bolt spring will slightly reduce air efficiency in comparison to a short bolt spring since a somewhat higher tank pressure is required to overcome the longer spring. You won't be able to squeeze those last few shots out of your tank that you could with a level 7 spring. However, most players find the efficiency difference negligable and that this is a worthwhile trade-off.

Ok, so now your gun is shooting nicely and you've stuck your tongue in the level 10 without chopping it off and launching it out the barrel and across the room. Great! But what are those shims for? Well, they allow you to adjust the exact point in the bolt's forward travel that it will 'chuff' or de-pressurize the dump chamber when encountering a form of resistance (such as a half-breached paintball) and re-cock. A lot of level 10 mag owners skip this step, but it does further increase the gentleness on paint by enabling your level 10 powers to activate the instant the bolt starts moving forward. Adding shims pushes the carrier further back which reduces the distance between the o-ring in the carrier and the vent hole on the level 10 bolt's shaft when the bolt and spring are at rest. You want to position the carrier's o-ring as close to the vent hole as you can. Go ahead and keep adding shims until a leak develops (this happens because the carrier's o-ring is being pushed past the vent hole). Then remove one shim to stop the leak and you're all done.
- Note: The step of shim adjustment in the level 10 can be done (and arguably should be done) before selecting your bolt spring, but you can do it either way.

I hope this helps. It's a lengthy comment and you may know some of this stuff already, but it pays to be thorough.

[athomas]

But what are those shims for? Well, they allow you to adjust the exact point in the bolt's forward travel that it will 'chuff' or de-pressurize the dump chamber when encountering a form of resistance (such as a half-breached paintball) and re-cock. A lot of level 10 mag owners skip this step, but it does further increase the gentleness on paint by enabling your level 10 powers to activate the instant the bolt starts moving forward. Adding shims pushes the carrier further back which reduces the distance between the o-ring in the carrier and the vent hole on the level 10 bolt's shaft when the bolt and spring are at rest. You want to position the carrier's o-ring as close to the vent hole as you can. Go ahead and keep adding shims until a leak develops (this happens because the carrier's o-ring is being pushed past the vent hole). Then remove one shim to stop the leak and you're all done.
- Note: The step of shim adjustment in the level 10 can be done (and arguably should be done) before selecting your bolt spring, but you can do it either way.

The shims don't add any gentlenesss. They do adjust how far the bolt needs to move before it can vent. Most of the time for any given setup, the bolt always moves far enough to expose the vent hole and adding shims will not help. You would need the bolt to be almost stationary with less than 0.02" of movement on any blockage for it to not vent. If there is a blockage that prevents that much movement, then there are other issues and it isn't a chop that is being prevented, but rather something that is interfering with the forward bolt movement from the beginning. The one thing to note, is if the gun vents or not when it does fire. If it fires or vents, then it doesn't need shims. If it locks up after it fires or vents, then it doesn't need shims.

The only time it needs shims is if the gun is ready to fire, you pull the trigger, the bolt moves forward, no air escapes out the front by shooting or venting, the trigger goes limp, and it doesn't reset.

You can use the level 10 setup from the other valve. Since the carriers are used to adjust the tension of the powertube oring on the bolt stem, you will need to transfer both the carrier-oring combination, and the bolt from the other valve. As long as the level 10 was working properly in the other valve, it will work properly here and will eliminate one point of failure and allow you to determine whether something else is causing issues.

Rapid fire issues is generally not related to a level 10 tuning issue. It is usually a worn sear or leaking on-off. Ths small oring on the back of the regulator pin assembly can cause the issue if it has a piece of dirt in it, but it is really rare that it would happen.

What rail are you using? Is the body sitting down tight on the rail? Check that the small pim (where the grip frame screws into the body) isn't bottoming out in the rail.