Fabricating New Nubbins / Detents

[MrBarraclough]

The Problem: Force-fed hoppers + today's undersized paint + original twistlock Automag barrels = double feeding and chopping paint

The Question(s): Does anyone know the specs of the wire used to make the old V-notch wire nubbins (gauge, type of steel, etc)? Or at least have good experiences with a serviceable substitute? The shape is simple enough to replicate with hand tools; it's just a question of using wire that will retain its shape but bend enought to not slice balls.
Or does anyone have any tips for reliably getting the new plastic nubbins to project further into the barrel to prevent double feeding with newer motorized hoppers and undersized paint? I've considered dipping them in plasti-dip or even making impressions of them and casting replacements out of silicone or another moldable rubber.

Related question: Has anyone ever had a twistlock barrel modified to use some other type of detent? I recently bought a cocker thread adapter from Doc's Machine and it uses what I think are old-style Spyder detents (vaguely thumbtack shaped, just a rubber shaft with flat round flared base). The milling is a simple slot (to give the shaft somewhere to lay flat when the bolt pushes it down) with a blind hole drilled about halfway through the thickness of the metal to accomodate the base. It seems simple enough that it might be easy to have an existing barrel machined to do the same. Has anyone tried this?

The background to these questions, for anyone interested to know, is that my buddy and I both returned to paintball this past year after about a 20 year absence. New seals got our old Level 7 classic Mags back in working order quite easily (as you would expect). For Christmas, I bought him a new Empire Halo Too hopper, thinking that solving the problem of outshooting one's hopper would finally let his Mag perform to its true potential. Much to our disappointment, when we tried it out a couple of weeks ago it chopped balls like crazy, presumably because the hopper was overcoming the nubbin. I'll see what I can go about adjusting the stack tension/motor speed, but I imagine that I'll also need to do something to the nubbin. Today's paint just drops right through.

[Nobody]

I would never use a wire detent ever again. I had one destroy a barrel.

While others will have slightly different experiences, that is mine but it doesn't help you. The wire detents are made out of piano wire. Find out the diameter by use of a micrometer and then bend accordingly.

1) nail polish dot. Its an old school detent method before guns had detents or anti-double feeds. It is not permanent nor damaging but also not permanent. You can place the nail polish in different places like opposite the detent, before it, etc.

2) home modding "empire finger detents". Using a knife to cut the detent and then even placing the modded finger, on/above the stock detent to get more length

3) get new barrels. It sucks, but paint gets smaller and even though .008 isn't much but in 20 years it is huge. That is why you see not only barrel kits use inserts but also have backs that are below .680 in sizes. I have plenty of Lapco Bigabots and Autospirits yet they sit because they are huge with today's paint. Insert barrels have the flexibility to handle the differing paint sizes and people do make super small inserts(Ty McNeer makes .665 brass inserts, as some paint has gotten that small.

4) strangler choke parts. An in between time with cockers and force feed hoppers, people used specifically tight barrel backs(AKA Lapco were the 2 I remember) tbat were only 1" long but were like .680 to create a choke point for the ball to stop against, before it was shot. Soyou wouldn't get the balls pushed by cockers that had no or weak detents.

5) ULE body. Going lighter in weight, better weight balance of the hopper directly over the gun, better detents, and cocker threading; it is a direct upgrade that fixes(after getting a adjustable feedneck - highly recommend the Inception Designs FLE feedneck, short) all your problems and brings you mag, at least in looks, to the 21st century. Combine that with a L10 kit and you have an anvil that will never break paint, never let you down, shooter.

But I would highly recommend getting a Level 10 kit. It eliminates any chopping, so while you find new barrels or just power through your old ones, knowing you won't chop a ball is immensely comforting.

[vintage]

get the plastic nubbin and build it up with JB weld. the level 10 kits are great but they don't like nubbins.

[MrBarraclough]

get the plastic nubbin and build it up with JB weld. the level 10 kits are great but they don't like nubbins.

As in coat the tip of the triangle with JB Weld, or use it to build up the back so the plastic detent simply projects further in? I've got plenty of JB Weld lying about due to owning a 79 MGB.

[MrBarraclough]

2) home modding "empire finger detents". Using a knife to cut the detent and then even placing the modded finger, on/above the stock detent to get more length

Are you talking about using something like a rubber Ego detent and trimming the base with and exacto knife to fit the slot in a twistlock barrel?

I imagine that a Level 10 kit will be in my future eventually. As I have been gearing back up over the past several months after returning to paintball, I've poured an embarassing amount of money into it already.

[Nobody]

Are you talking about using something like a rubber Ego detent and trimming the base with and exacto knife to fit the slot in a twistlock barrel?

I imagine that a Level 10 kit will be in my future eventually. As I have been gearing back up over the past several months after returning to paintball, I've poured an embarassing amount of money into it already.

Yes pretty much modding any finger detent to work/fit. Empire, Planet Eclipse, spyder, whomever.

With everything, experiences will vary, in regards to plastic nubbins and L10. Then again, some say that a foamy is necessary while my L10 in my classic has been without it since i shot it out after install and never experienced any problems.

And as i wrote previously, depending on how much you want to dove in or how quickly, there are some quick methods, some permanent methods and some homebrew methods to mitigate your problems. Getting a smaller bore twist lock will help(with or without nail polish for example), but a twistlock freak kit is better overall. Then changing the body to a ULE with better detents and a better & bigger selection of barrels is best.

So decide on your path, whether in small steps or big leaps and bounds, i.e. time & money; and choose how you want to go. I am not one to tell you to throw money at it, but you have to decide how best to use the information given and apply it to your situation.

My pick is a L10, ULE body + new feedneck, and a freak barrel kit. Yes it is nearer $300, but you'll then eliminate rollouts, double feeds, chopping and save some weight and a breaking point(old or shot through plastic hopper elbow-unless you have a metal or more durable one).

[vintage]

As in coat the tip of the triangle with JB Weld, or use it to build up the back so the plastic detent simply projects further in? I've got plenty of JB Weld lying about due to owning a 79 MGB.

whichever works best, i don't remember exactly which Jason said he did, i think it was the back so it would stick in farther.

[MrBarraclough]

Thanks for the insights, Nobody.

I was tempted to go with the ULE body for my own Mag, but opted instead to try the Doc's adaptor. A couple of months back, as I was getting more into re-equipping via eBay, I bought an old Proto SLG for about $90 just for the hell of screwing around with an electro. That gave me an excuse to get into acquiring cocker threaded barrels, so I jumped on the Doc's adaptor once a new batch became available. Having played a couple of days with the SLG, though, I really like the balance and lower profile of a direct feed. I've got an old Dye Rotor on that gun and the height is surprisingly low. It makes my Mag with its powerfed Minimag body and Empire hopper look crazy tall. I imagine one day I'll end up with a ULE body.

My buddy to whom I gave the Halo Too is much less of a gearhead than I am, so he's more inclined to go the cheap/DIY route than buying a Level 10 kit and ULE body. I was asking for his sake more than mine, I suppose, as the detents in the Doc's adaptor should solve the issue for me. Though for my own sake, I am interested in making my old twistlock barrels work with newer hoppers, as I'd hate to just consign them to the bottom of the gear bag. The fundamental problem, as I understand it, is that twistlock barrels went out of production well before paint got as small as it is today. The only time I've seen a twistlock freak kit pop up on eBay it was somewhere around $150-200. I'll give the homemade wire nubbin and the modified rubber detent ideas a try.

[rawbutter]

I personally think that your idea to modify a twist-lock to accept Spyder style detents is a great idea. I'm not exactly sure how you'll hold the detents in the barrel when you take it out (tape? super glue?) but that's the only real problem I can see with it. Besides actually drilling the barrel in the right place. But it should be too hard if you have a drill press and measure very carefully. (A milling machine would be better, but a drill press could work.)

I say give it a try....but first I would practice on an old barrel that you don't care about. If you don't have one, I'm sure you can find one for real cheap somewhere since you wouldn't need to worry about condition.

As for your buddy with the Halo Too, he might find that he really doesn't need a Level 10. If he's just shooting mechanical semi with no RT effect, the Halo Too will feed faster than he can pull the trigger. Then as long as he has good detents that don't double-feed, he shouldn't have any problems. I ran my first classic mag for years and years without Level 10, just a Halo. Never had any chopping problems.

You can get lower feednecks too. If you trade in the powerfeed for a direct right feed and then chop it down so it doesn't stick up two inches, you can get some really small feednecks like the PTP feedneck. Those are nearly as short as vertical feednecks, and you can still sight down the barrel.

RT vert mag.jpg

[MrBarraclough]

I personally think that your idea to modify a twist-lock to accept Spyder style detents is a great idea. I'm not exactly sure how you'll hold the detents in the barrel when you take it out (tape? super glue?) but that's the only real problem I can see with it. Besides actually drilling the barrel in the right place. But it should be too hard if you have a drill press and measure very carefully. (A milling machine would be better, but a drill press could work.)

I say give it a try....but first I would practice on an old barrel that you don't care about. If you don't have one, I'm sure you can find one for real cheap somewhere since you wouldn't need to worry about condition.

As for your buddy with the Halo Too, he might find that he really doesn't need a Level 10. If he's just shooting mechanical semi with no RT effect, the Halo Too will feed faster than he can pull the trigger. Then as long as he has good detents that don't double-feed, he shouldn't have any problems. I ran my first classic mag for years and years without Level 10, just a Halo. Never had any chopping problems.

You can get lower feednecks too. If you trade in the powerfeed for a direct right feed and then chop it down so it doesn't stick up two inches, you can get some really small feednecks like the PTP feedneck. Those are nearly as short as vertical feednecks, and you can still sight down the barrel.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]102366[/ATTACH]

Yeah, I think getting a shorter feed elbow would help, as would cutting down the excess half inch or so from my gun's Minimag powerfeed. I've stumbled across that old Proteam website before. Are they still in business? The "news" section appears to have last been updated in 2012, and the design of the whole site looks like it was coded in an afternoon sometime around 1998.

I've got a drill press and my old stock barrel that hasn't seen use since about 1996, so I might try my hand at adapting it to take rubber detents of the thumbtack shaped variety.

[vintage]

Thanks for the insights, Nobody.

I was tempted to go with the ULE body for my own Mag, but opted instead to try the Doc's adaptor. A couple of months back, as I was getting more into re-equipping via eBay, I bought an old Proto SLG for about $90 just for the hell of screwing around with an electro. That gave me an excuse to get into acquiring cocker threaded barrels, so I jumped on the Doc's adaptor once a new batch became available. Having played a couple of days with the SLG, though, I really like the balance and lower profile of a direct feed. I've got an old Dye Rotor on that gun and the height is surprisingly low. It makes my Mag with its powerfed Minimag body and Empire hopper look crazy tall. I imagine one day I'll end up with a ULE body.

My buddy to whom I gave the Halo Too is much less of a gearhead than I am, so he's more inclined to go the cheap/DIY route than buying a Level 10 kit and ULE body. I was asking for his sake more than mine, I suppose, as the detents in the Doc's adaptor should solve the issue for me. Though for my own sake, I am interested in making my old twistlock barrels work with newer hoppers, as I'd hate to just consign them to the bottom of the gear bag. The fundamental problem, as I understand it, is that twistlock barrels went out of production well before paint got as small as it is today. The only time I've seen a twistlock freak kit pop up on eBay it was somewhere around $150-200. I'll give the homemade wire nubbin and the modified rubber detent ideas a try.

what elbows are you using? the PTP ones are lower profile than the old clear plastic ones from back in the day and a whole lot tougher.

[vintage]

Jason(blackdeath1k) was talking about trying to modify a barrel for the spyder detents before he had to quit playing because a shoulder problem.

[Nobody]

what elbows are you using? the PTP ones are lower profile than the old clear plastic ones from back in the day and a whole lot tougher.

I haven't used any elbows since about 2004, so i am way out of the know on what is good and bad, with elbows. And i will assume that, since this guy is ressurecting his stuff from 20 years ago, that the elbows used are also of that vintage.

[rawbutter]

I've stumbled across that old Proteam website before. Are they still in business? The "news" section appears to have last been updated in 2012, and the design of the whole site looks like it was coded in an afternoon sometime around 1998.

Lol. Their site is definitely old, but they're still selling stuff. If you send them an email, they will let you know what's in stock.

[MrBarraclough]

what elbows are you using? the PTP ones are lower profile than the old clear plastic ones from back in the day and a whole lot tougher.

Currently using some dark smoke/translucent black elbows that I think were maybe JT branded and have little Phillips head screws for adjustment. Got them either off Amazon or from ANSgear. They're about the same height as the translucent grey ones that used to come with new Mags, maybe slightly taller. Also in my bag is an ancient 45-degree PVC elbow with an insert glued in place and the outside painted black. I think it came off an old unibody Phatom pump that passed through my hands in the late 90s and I kept the improvised elbow because it happened to also fit my Mag.