Efficiency with LX?

[Shirow]

Ok, I guess that would make sense. I still think that people are shooting too much during tourney games. Electrics are making ROF much higher which is OK, but we cant just let people rip off rounds endlessly. When we had pumps only the skill requirement was much higher (marksmanship, stealth, etc) in order to win. Now all you need to do is move to a good spot and unload - where is the skill in that? Or, if your head to head in a snapshooting fight, you just have to let off a hundred rounds at the guy and wait for one to hit him, you dont need to aim carefully! But, if we limit paint to X amount where X is less than usual amount by a considerable number, then we will have teams developing a better plans or "plays" and the game will become more strategic, but with very fast firing guns. This way, teams will have the SAME amount of paint each game, they will have to be careful to not drop the paint, shoot wisely, and develop better marksmanship. Does anyone agree with this? I feel like I'm alone here.

I agree with you :)

At the field I play at we have a couple of speedball fields, and it's not uncommon to see people play with only a hopper of paint, or not more than 4 pods.

I find it more fun that way, personally, but I don't know if tournaments are really about 'fun' in the same sense.

[mike e]

sweet jesus 15 pods!?!!?!? i go to my field and play all day on half a case and i play mid what is wrong with you people! to be honest i dont think i have ever owend a full case at any one time....im just to poor for that

[Havoc_online]

JT came out with a new harness that holds up to 20 pods. You can bet most if not all back pro players will get thier hands on it(unless it conflicts with sponsorship). The limit on the amount of paint you can take on the field will never be limited, maybe for certian types of games but not in general. Paintball companies love to sell paint, thats just how it goes. Also, most if not all pro teams don't pay for paint so of course they don't care on how many pods they use.

[rudy]

havoc is right for sure. lets be honest people its fun to shoot your gun. thats why I have these nylon balls I can shoot over and over and over and I am workign on somethign I can shoot at people. if it doesnt cost you anything then they love to shoot and they love to design the field so people can last a long time and shoot a tons of paint without being eliminated. it keeps pros where they are its real hard to break into tourneys when you can barely afford the gun let alone all the paint.
to me its just sad and almost sickening that a field IMHO is so poorly designed that a player can just shoot constantly the entire time. (unless he is shooting at nothing) and the worst part is that they are breeding younger players into this playstyle. I dont have a problem with that playstyle except when it makes up almost all of profesional fields. I believe paintball has alot to learn from online gaming about field design as it compares to level design. different fields should be played very different. some fields should not require any back player as we think of it at all. I repeat there should still be the current style of play in some fields we would just liken it to a map where spam is the way to win. but not all fields should be setup that way infact only maybe 1 in 5.

[rudy]

actually it would seem that the only thing stopping them from shooting more is the efficiency of the guns

[Shirow]

to me its just sad and almost sickening that a field IMHO is so poorly designed that a player can just shoot constantly the entire time. (unless he is shooting at nothing) and the worst part is that they are breeding younger players into this playstyle. I dont have a problem with that playstyle except when it makes up almost all of profesional fields. I believe paintball has alot to learn from online gaming about field design as it compares to level design. different fields should be played very different. some fields should not require any back player as we think of it at all. I repeat there should still be the current style of play in some fields we would just liken it to a map where spam is the way to win. but not all fields should be setup that way infact only maybe 1 in 5.

Agree totally. It would be nice to have a field where it was a lot of sneaking and a lot of opportunities for some strategy - would also be nice to have some more wide open, and similar to what is available now. I don't experience this kind of play as I only play at local fields, but having 2000+ paintballs thrown at the field in one game is something I find a little off putting. When I play at our local rec field, I'll quite often not even go through 500 rounds (although this is because we play a lot of woodsball, and only 2-3 games of speedball generally.)

[FlipFlops]

I completely disagree with quite a few of the statements made. Tournament players still need stealth, accuracy, and other skills that began with pump players, they just use them differently. Back players that spend an entire game shooting down a tape line to keep the other team from even looking up that line provide an avenue for their front players. More often than not, back players don't shoot people out, they just keep the other team from looking out or shooting down a particular lane or direction.

if your head to head in a snapshooting fight, you just have to let off a hundred rounds at the guy and wait for one to hit him, you dont need to aim carefully!

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. The guy posted up is usually the one getting shot. You have to be quick and extremely accurate as a snapshooter. And if you do decide to post up, you have to be shooting right next to the bunker, not at the bunker, or away from it, so that you do catch him as he starts to come out on you.

Now all you need to do is move to a good spot and unload - where is the skill in that?

Not really. You take a good position, stay alive, and pick your shots. You can't take a 50 bunker and then just shoot and shoot. Most front players have less than 5 pods, which runs out very quick in 15 minutes.

Have you guys actually played organized ball 10 on 10? On good fields? I understand where you're coming from on the massive amounts of paint being shot, but unless you actually experience it, you don't really have the perspective to say that the whole NPPL needs to go to limited paint.

Yes, it sucks that pro teams shoot about 5 cases of paint per game and the average recballer can't afford that, but that's life. The only way to become a pro is to dish out the cash, "pay your dues", play a ton, and get well known.

[drx975]

Ok, from what people have posted here goes...

Originally Posted By rudy:

I dont have a problem with that playstyle except when it makes up almost all of profesional fields. I believe paintball has alot to learn from online gaming about field design as it compares to level design. different fields should be played very different. some fields should not require any back player as we think of it at all. I repeat there should still be the current style of play in some fields we would just liken it to a map where spam is the way to win. but not all fields should be setup that way infact only maybe 1 in 5

EXACTLY. I know that some of you here have played or still play Counter-Strike. Take a look at those maps. Now I know that it would be very expensive to recreate those, but we can learn a LOT from them. One reason CS is so successful is of the game engine and the maps. I think if we put more into fields than 2 seconds and 15 inflatable bunkers, paintball could be improved and a lot more fun. Two ideas for this : 1) a bunker thats tall and has a 2ft ledge behind it to stand on, and 2) a hole in the ground (not some cheezy ditch, a real hole 3ft deep). Dont flame this is just an idea.

Originally Posted By FlipFlops:

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. The guy posted up is usually the one getting shot. You have to be quick and extremely accurate as a snapshooter. And if you do decide to post up, you have to be shooting right next to the bunker, not at the bunker, or away from it, so that you do catch him as he starts to come out on you.

Ok thats true you do need to be quick. But when I snapshoot (im front player) I take about 3 shots max then get myself back in QUICK. I aim before I come out. But if someone is just streaming off paint on the side of your bunker, it takes away a good amount of skill needed to aim. Accuracy by volume, and im against that. Yeah most people arent I know. And yeah, Ive caught some people on the hopper by shooting right before I expected them to come out. All I am saying is that a really fast gun doesnt require as much marksmanship as a semi firing at 8 or 9 a second.

Originally Posted By FlipFlops:

Not really. You take a good position, stay alive, and pick your shots. You can't take a 50 bunker and then just shoot and shoot. Most front players have less than 5 pods, which runs out very quick in 15 minutes.

I wont argue with that, in fact I agree with that completely but something needs to change. We shouldnt HAVE to fire that much. If one single back player is shooting 2000 balls, then something is wrong. Maybe there arent enough open lanes or the bunkers are too big. Come on admit it, nothing is perfect and I dont think tourney ball is either. Inflatable bunkers should be more like hyperball fields, smaller, different shapes, less area to hide. This would speed up games and involve MUCH quicker decision making and team coordination, while involving aim a whole lot more. Then we could limit paint.

Large bunkers, few vulnerable bunkers, and people spraying paint around just doesnt sound as fun as having small bunkers, less paint, and more vulnerable players/bunkers. It would definetly require more skill and coordination from a paintball team, not the paintball gun.

[rudy]

Yes, it sucks that pro teams shoot about 5 cases of paint per game and the average recballer can't afford that, but that's life. The only way to become a pro is to dish out the cash, "pay your dues", play a ton, and get well known.

Now maybe Im just a loser idealist or something but I have got to say thats something I had hoped would not be true. Basically that says our sport is not about who has the most skill but rather who has more skill then the other guy who is also rich enough to afford it. think about all the talent that is sitting around wasted because the game is designed around massive paint use. and they cant afford to break into the tourney scene. (there are other ways to break in though who you know where you are located)

Tournament players still need stealth, accuracy, and other skills that began with pump players, they just use them differently.

Yes and on equal terms a team which is equal everywhere but is missing say.. accuracy is going to lose over the long run. but that is true no matter how you design the field. what is going on though is they have factored many of those skills down to a minor fraction of what they should be. In this game there will ALWAYS be an advantage to shooting more paint no matter how you design the field it increases your odds when against a equaly skilled team with less paint. So my point is why have it that way? making the field so back players shoot 2000 rnds in a game isnt as competitive as it could be. yes it takes skill but it could take more and should take more. You only should have to shoot paint for a window around when your player is moving. if anyone is shooting paint the whole game that means they are mostly looking for lucky shots and helping guys move here and there. I have played enough 10 man to know that people dont move nearly as many times as justifies nonstop shooting. honestly I dont even think there are that many total possible moves on a field. I have got no problem with a person wanting to shoot that much but it should not offer enough of a tactical advantage that it would be an very common tactic. People should not need to make rules to harness excessive paint use the field should just allow for other skills to make up for it.

[FlipFlops]

Getting pretty deep, and off the topic of my original post, but until fields are redesigned to change the paint consumption, most people are going to try to do what works best for the top players and teams.

If you were out at Paintball Central every weekend and Trauma (who won yesterday, that's 5 NPPL events in a row now) is telling you to shoot more and more, to never let up with the paint, then you do that.

So yes, maybe there are changes needed, but until they show up, I'm going to do what the Trauma back players are telling me to do :)