real quick lvl 10 question.

[flatacid]

this is my second install of lvl 10. right now its setup like this:
#2 carrier, 2 shims, longest spring.

its still to heavy. theres no way it will stop on a dollar. i put my fingure in there, and its alittle harder than i would like. i noticed that when i turned down the velocity, that it would get softer. but then it would go too far, and id have to crank it back up.

anyway, if i goto #1.5 carrier, will that make it alittle bit softer on paint, or dollar bills? what about an extra shim? thanks.

[Tunaman]

add shims to make it vent earlier. If it is still too hard for you, go to the next larger spring and start over

[BlackVCG]

Use the loosest carrier that doesn't leak. This will reduce the pressure behind the bolt needed to get it moving and translate into less bolt force. Make sure your velocity is less than 300fps.

[Pand0ra]

Re: real quick lvl 10 question.

Originally posted by flatacid
anyway, if i goto #1.5 carrier, will that make it alittle bit softer on paint, or dollar bills?

Yes it does, but you could end getting bolt sticks at the worst moment.

what about an extra shim? thanks.

This as nothing to do with the force of the bolt. The shim makes the bolt vent earlier, as someone wrote before.

@++

[Havoc_online]

Re: Re: real quick lvl 10 question.

Originally posted by Pand0ra
Yes it does, but you could end getting bolt sticks at the worst moment.

No it doesnt

[hitech]

Here is what the level 10 instructions say:

Fine tuning
For most people the setup outlined above will make every paintball day a great experience. For those looking to get maximum anti chop with fragile tourney paint we offer the following suggestions. The O-ring friction can be used to additionally slow the bolt down. By going to the next smaller carrier you add an additional layer of protection at the expense of risking bolt stick. You must keep your marker oiled daily to keep it working reliably. The long mainspring can be trimmed to further fine tune the performance. The best performance comes when the marker just starts firing at 270 fps and works reliably at 290 fps.

The penalty for over tuning is the fact that the marker may occasionally refuse to fire. This is because the main spring combined with the power tub O-ring has too much sticktion to let the bolt go forward. Try at your own risk.

[Kevmaster]

decreasing the carrier size will increase sensativity of the LX(softer on paint) but will make it more prone to bolt stick

[flatacid]

guys. ive tryed small and large carriers now. the loosest one that doesn't leak is the softest. less friction takes less pressure to move. equals softer.

[Kevmaster]

flatacid, im not exactly sure what you mean by your statement, but

if you make the carrier bigger (assuming it doesnt leak) it will have less friction with the bolt. thus the bolt will move faster. the faster the bolt moves the harder it hits the ball

here is the detailed explanation
MAIN LAW: Newton's second (F(net) = Mass * Acceleration)


Case #1 (you have the bigger carrier in--less friction).
****Forces****
Friction: --> (2 units in the right direction)
Air Forward: <------ (6 units in the left direction)
****Mass****
constant mass of bolt, say 1 unit
****Acceleration****
to be discovered by forumla

enact second law:
--> + <------ == <---- == (1)(Acceleration)
Acceleration == <----




Case #2(you have the smaller carrier in--more friction).
****Forces****
Friction: ----> (4 units in the right direction)
Air Forward: <------ (6 units in the left direction)
****Mass****
constant mass of bolt, same 1 unit
****Acceleration****
to be discovered by forumla

enact second law:
----> + <------ == <-- == (1)(Acceleration)
Acceleration == <--





so, the acceleration in the second case is SMALLER tan the acceleration in the first case. and since: velocity(bolt)==Acceleration*Time, the velocity of the bolt will be less with the second, smaller carrier


logic, the AO way :)

[Havoc_online]

Originally posted by kevmaster
flatacid, im not exactly sure what you mean by your statement, but

if you make the carrier bigger (assuming it doesnt leak) it will have less friction with the bolt. thus the bolt will move faster. the faster the bolt moves the harder it hits the ball

here is the detailed explanation
MAIN LAW: Newton's second (F(net) = Mass * Acceleration)


Case #1 (you have the bigger carrier in--less friction).
****Forces****
Friction: --> (2 units in the right direction)
Air Forward: <------ (6 units in the left direction)
****Mass****
constant mass of bolt, say 1 unit
****Acceleration****
to be discovered by forumla

enact second law:
--> + <------ == <---- == (1)(Acceleration)
Acceleration == <----




Case #2(you have the smaller carrier in--more friction).
****Forces****
Friction: ----> (4 units in the right direction)
Air Forward: <------ (6 units in the left direction)
****Mass****
constant mass of bolt, same 1 unit
****Acceleration****
to be discovered by forumla

enact second law:
----> + <------ == <-- == (1)(Acceleration)
Acceleration == <--





so, the acceleration in the second case is SMALLER tan the acceleration in the first case. and since: velocity(bolt)==Acceleration*Time, the velocity of the bolt will be less with the second, smaller carrier


logic, the AO way :)

kevmaster, your logic and physics need reviewing.

First of all, that's not even the right equation and even if it were your values are all mess up. F is force which in this case would be pressure(which heads to the right btw), Ff is friction. Mass doesnt change with either set-up so it's worthless AND you didnt even manipulate the equation to solve for acceleration.

With MORE friction, you need MORE pressure to accelerate. This way, you have to keep oiling that o'ring every chance you get(which will give you a false and non-constant sense of friction) or your going to get bolt stick, unless you increase your presssure even more in which case MORE pressure means a HIGHER Vi(intial velocity if you forgot) so acceleration is faster hence harder on paint. Your reliability will be severely threatened and your going to get chrono readings all over the place since there's not always going to be that same amount of friction.

Use the biggest carrier that doesnt leak. I use the cut spring and my bolt will practically pinch an egg yolk. I also have no worries about reliability in the field. Did I mention I get +/- 0 over the chrono?

[Kevmaster]

ok, now that i am awake and can read everything

"First of all, that's not even the right equation "
--mmm, so F(net) = MA has just disapeared from this earth? Then what formula do you look at to compare forces with a change in velocity?

"and even if it were your values are all mess up. F is force which in this case would be pressure(which heads to the right btw), Ff is friction."
--yes. thats what i have. F(net) is adding all the Fs together to get one force vector. and ok, if F(air) is to the right F(friction) is then to the right. they oppose one another. why? because you can get the carrier too small and thus the bolt wont move.

"Mass doesnt change with either set-up so it's worthless"
--correct. thats why i assigned 1 as its value in BOTH equations. it could have been 100 each time and it wouldnt have mattered

"AND you didnt even manipulate the equation to solve for acceleration"
--so, saying:
<-- = (1)*Acceleration
doesnt solve for acceleration? what does one have to do to solve for something since apparnetly moving all values to one side and the variable to the other doesnt solve for something anymore.

"With MORE friction, you need MORE pressure to accelerate. "
--yes. to get the same acceleration with more friction, you need more force in the opposite direction. (because of that same forumla that doesnt exist or doesnt work here). but to have the same force forward and increased force bacwards, you lose acceleration

"This way, you have to keep oiling that o'ring every chance you get(which will give you a false and non-constant sense of friction) or your going to get bolt stick, unless you increase your presssure even more in which case MORE pressure means a HIGHER Vi(intial velocity if you forgot) so acceleration is faster hence harder on paint."
--yes. to do this, because of the increasd friction, you do have to oil it constantly. i dont advocate doing this, however, some people may feel it worthehile. you can set it so your carrier is smaller than it has to be, yet doesnt get boltstick, thus not changing the velo dial...no more pressure. and V(i) is 0 for a bolt that starts at rest

"Your reliability will be severely threatened and your going to get chrono readings all over the place since there's not always going to be that same amount of friction. "
--Tru Dat!


any more questions class?



oh, ps, by the way, i dont mean any of this in any manner more than intellectual debate. id love to see someone else get in on this debate too....anything you have to add is welcomed

[Kevmaster]

oh, and stolen from Tom Kaye's LX Installation and Fine Tuning guide

Originally posted by AGD

[hitech]

Originally posted by kevmaster
oh, and stolen from Tom Kaye's LX Installation and Fine Tuning guide

Hey, I already stole that!

[Kevmaster]

hehe, so im smart and ignorant, whats wrong with that ??

[Havoc_online]

Originally posted by AGD
For the record I was wrong about using a tighter carrier to slow the bolt down so please go with the longest spring and loosest carrier that works.

AGD

Professor Havoc in the house