co2 help

[crazymex]

hey guys i was just wonderin if its ok to use co2 on my mag and no i dont have rt

[GoatBoy]

Would I be out of line if I suggested the standard answer for this question be "If you have to ask, you're probably better off using HPA"?


To answer the directly, yes, it is OK to use CO2 with a non-RT style valve.

[CONRICE]

i have a classic and it hates CO2. it freezes the whole gun up and CO2 comes out of the velocity adjust. it sux. try to use HPA. if you do use HPA, make sure its dry air. cuz this one time it wasnt it was just an air compressor and i literally had water in my tank! good times

[Shyne151]

My minimag fire fine with co2, just make sure you run an expansion chamber.

[GoatBoy]

What good does an expansion chamber do?


(Hint: this is a trick question)

[Mav D MagMan]

It gives liquid co2 the chance to expand, keeping it out of the marker and saving your seels and your velocity (liquid co2 can expand and spike your pressure).

You can run co2 on any non-rt mag without a problem, granted you keep *LIQUID* co2 out of your valve.

Most of the folks on here didn't give the whole story...

I've had my valve freeze over from straight co2 but there are ways around it (pbreview.com has a mag forum with plenty of info saved on this, but it's closed for the night lol)

1. Run a vertical bottle - Cheapest alternative, long as you don't dip your marker down (and flood your gas lines with liquid co2)
2. Run a horizontal tank on an angled asa - Again, not too expensive, but still susceptible to dipping
3. Run a horizontal tank and an expansion chamber - depending on your chamber this can be a good mid range way to setup your marker
4. Run an anti-siphon tank *horizontally* with an expansion chamber - now we're getting expensive, but still keeping liquid co2 out
5. Run your tank on a remote line - Mid range price, but not the best (some people don't like remote lines).

Personally I've hooked co2 up to my mag here and there (but never played a game) horizontal - non angled asa, and haven't had troubles with liquid co2 (lately, it is summer afterall).

Mav

[Woogie12]

How much does it cost to get an anti-siphon installed? I have HPA but my brother is looking into it.

[GoatBoy]

Expansion chambers don't really do squat for you. Yes, the liquid will hit a fresh expansion chamber and expand. But in doing so, it will suck thermal energy from its surroundings, and then you have a cold expansion chamber. I'm actually quite surprised the expansion chamber myth has survived this long. I've seen enough high dollar expansion chambers feed nothing but snow on a hot summer day in Texas to know what I'm talking about.

All of these voodoo gas expansion tricks will only buy you a few shots at most before they start feeding liquid up into your gun. And some of them require you to hold the gun at certain angles. So, you know, running around, tilting the gun, even moving the gun when playing will get the CO2 to slosh and cause problems. Or whatever other ergonomic nightmares brought on by these 'solutions'. You know, most of those techniques came from an era when a significant amount of people were still playing with pump guns, and 5bps would have been considered a high rate of fire.

Considering all the absolutely frivolous and fruity things you could be spending your money on (I saw another post where someone recommended spending another $50 on a new dropforward to fix a leak, as if money grew on trees), an HPA tank or stabilizer would be worthy investments to look into. For a stabilizer, I recommend obviously gutting the AIR regulator and letting the stabilizer perform its job.

If you look around the classifieds, you can probably pick up a stabilizer or 48/3k Aluminum nitro tank. You should be able to pick either one up for like $60 easy. If money is tight, I'd say you should go straight for HPA. Sell your CO2 tank and recoup some of that money.


I'll leave it to the other experts to tell you how much their suggested solutions cost.



Mav -- your experience with the matter appears to be close to nil.

[wad04]

look if you have a automag classic, co2 will work fine... i just run a remote.. i have never had a problem with it ever.

[Mav D MagMan]

Woogie- I'm not too sure how much your local shop would charge, but I did see the anti-siphon tube itself for sale at pbgear for about five dollars!

I would reccomend having started off with an anti siphon tank from the beginning (if you'd already planned on sticking with co2), but with a 60 dollar investment for a new one, and with HPA fills available I'd reccomend just holding out for even a lower level HPA tank.


Goatboy-
1. So you have a cold expansion chamber, big deal, I've frozen them over before and the marker keeps on ticking just fine, it's when you start to get an iced over tank that you get the pressure drops associated with running co2 setups.
2. Again, while I haven't played with co2 in these setups, I have run testing... without any real liquid co2 countermeasures.

Tests worth mentioning:
This is in December of last year:
First use of marker ever! (used co2 to run oil through my marker) - 12 oz tank, remote line to marker (since at the time I didn't have an asa setup), coiled on ground and tank fell over (gasp!) co2 did manage to snake up into my marker and it vented(even after I extended the remote, but the tank was still sideways)
I tried again the next day, no issues...
August this year:
Second co2 run (Used to set-up Level10 on my marker) - 20 oz tank, on ground, remote line running to marker on table. Shot fine, not a single problem.
This winter/spring:
Hooked 12oz up to marker to cycle oil before I played (n2 tanks empty) standard foregrip, horizontal cradle, no problems....
Last month:
Got my intelliframe, excited enough that I rushed to my empty n2 tanks, threw a 12oz on there, and started to go at it... Loving the trigger I didn't stop, performed a rof test, timing myself, the marker happened to be facing down so that I could see my clock.

3. So my setups worked, without any real investment (and even if I had spent that thirty for the remote for another marker) it wasn't very frivolous...

4. You are suggesting gutting the AIR reg with a lesser product (because it's the latest/greatest co2 gizmo)? These AGD regs are tried and true and have been running co2 since before you and I were playing...

5. Expert price quotes (on my above setups)
1. Vertical bottle - Free on a minimag or vert asa'd classic
2. Angled asa: $12-20 (by make)
3. *ACI* Expansion Chamber - $22
Notice I point out the ACI here, mostly to give you a little intro to the true nature of a good co2 expansion chamber...

If you notice there are 4 and 6x ACI chambers, this is because they have four to six cone sections, that act as miniature filters, co2 enters from the side, outside of the cones, and cannot leave the exit point (at the top of the cylinder, inside the base of a cone).

In the case that co2 is sloshed up inside of it, there's not only a large drain section at the bottom and center of all of the cones, but a small drain port on the sides of them as well.

Are you sure you have mastered the myth of the expansion chamber? There is more to it than what you learned in chemistry class... some are designed better than that.
4. Anti Siphon Tank - $58 (Like I said expensive)
5. Remote Line - $30

Add in the gas lines you'd need to run to your valve etc. in (Didn't feel like choosing macro, micro, or steel line for you) but you'd have to have them no matter what setup you ran nayways.

Any way you go it is less than a low-end N2 tank, or a Palmer's Stabilizer. Even used

(Stabilizer: NoPrice , Crossfire 47*3000psi tank: $74)

(Prices pulled from Pbgear.com)

That is not to say that they will give better performance than HPA, but in some areas HPA fills are not available etc. that is why this information was provided.

In addition, apparently you have something personal against me, I will continue this discussion in PMs please do not question my experience, or insult me period, especially in a public forum.

Mav

[GoatBoy]

I have nothing personally against you. I just take issue with your data. I was going by what you said. You've never actually played with CO2. This fact hasn't changed. There's a big difference between cycling a gun a few times, even if you're testing ROF, and playing repeated games.

I've seen the ACI chamber feed nothing but liquid up into a gun. I've seen this multiple times. In fact, I have seen them feed liquid when they weren't even cold. Cold expansion chambers are an issue because the change from liquid to gas sort of takes energy, and if there isn't any energy around for it to take, it's sort of not going to want to change phase, given pressure and volume conditions. It's just going to feed liquid straight through. I guess if you gave it a chance to rest, liquid would drain. You can't always do this. You can't always hold the gun at the perfect angle, or keep from moving it around.

I've seen the ACI marketing blurb about swirling and swishing. I find it hard to believe. If they make a clear one so that we can see this phenomenon first hand, I'll believe it. But to take a company like ACI's word for it... I can't do that. Now, what I CAN envision, is a situation on the field where the player has lowered his gun (tilted forward) and is taking a peek. Liquid's getting into the chamber. He pulls the gun up quickly to take a few snap shots before the chamber has had a chance to drain. In the event that the tank is warmer than the chamber (say, the butt end has been sitting in your armpit), it might prefer to change phase there, so it winds up pushing liquid through the chamber up into the gun. This is of course, somewhat hypothetical.

Or maybe the gun was just pointed downward walking out to the field.

Or maybe the gun was set down horizontally between games.

Or maybe the gun was tilted downward while adjusting the velocity at the chrono station. And this might be the worst time for it to happen, depending on the gun. Have you guys ever seen the mysterious "my gun just started shooting hot for no apparent reason, and there's nothing I can do but try to cut my hammer spring"-style chrono panic?

To be honest, I have never used an ACI expansion chamber myself. But I have seen them fail, and I'm willing to bet that you guys have seen them fail as well. I hate to see when some kid or a friend wastes their money on one of those things. It's not like they have a lot of money to throw around in the first place. It's really despicable how these paintball companies prey on players.

Lets see here... The vertical solution will cost money, as you stated, if he doesn't have a minimag. It's also a rather ineffective solution for the price. Price? Oh, have you every played with the bottle on the vertical ASA? First, it's no fun, second, you would at least want to buy a shoulder stock to replace the bottle that was once there. I have seen people playing with vertical ASA's. I usually hear them saying, "Man, I really need a shoulder stock or bottomline or something."

Angled ASA... Uhm... Allrighty, on to the next one!

The cost of the venerable 4-chamber ACI chamber. The $22 cost was missing a few things. Like all the extra hoses and fittings and the vertical ASA adapter itself? He's not going to want to use the same fittings and hose he's using currently, unless he actually likes the giant-loop-on-top-of-the-gun look. So I guess he could trade his existing one, but he'll still need maybe two more fittings and one more hose. How much is a 6-chamber, and how much extra performance do you get out of it?

Anti-siphon... Yeah, that's expensive. I've never seen them in use, but there's probably a reason for that. I think most people opt for the regular CO2 tank because they can buy it cheap and go play, and are planning to later "upgrade" with an expansion chamber. I thought I saw a faq on anti-siphons somewhere...

Remote... OK, now, personally, I think the remote is the most effective of these options. I generally think that the longer line allows the gas to draw more energy from the ambient surroundings, so it is more likely to expand on its way. It also can't hurt to strap that CO2 tank to a 98.6 degree active body. I think most people will tell you they get better liquid protection from remotes than expansion chambers.

But again, you forgot a few costs. He's going to need a pack upgrade for that. Unless he likes running around with his CO2 tank in his left hand. How much is that going to cost? From what I've seen, the nicer packs don't have a tank pouch. Second, again, removing the tank from the gun... You're really going to want a shoulder stock. I haven't seen anybody playing remote without a shoulder stock of some sort. When I played remote, I didn't like playing without the stock. So add all these costs in. And then you get into all the non-fun of running remote. I ran remote for a while; didn't much like it. Depends on the situation I guess. Most of the people I see running remotes these days are the scenario nuts with the M98's.

And remember, all this stuff is so that the player can experience the pleasure... nay, the PRIVILEGE, of playing paintball with CO2.

And again, if you go with HPA, you can sell your CO2 tank off, thus reducing the effective price. Check around the forums and see how cheap HPA can be. If you add it all up, it really, honestly, makes the other stuff look frivolous, no offense intended.


But yes, you are right, this is sort of subject to HPA availability.


Oh, one last thing, I didn't suggest the stabilizer because it was the "latest and greatest CO2 gizmo." The stab's been around for a long time. I'm very aware that this is an odd and probably looked-down-upon approach to the problem. But I suggested it because I've played with the mag in this configuration for a number of years without problems. Now, I haven't gone totally Rambo with it, but I have cycled the gun until ice literally covered my tank (which was feeding horizontally) and the stab without damage to the mag. (Although I wouldn't recommend doing this in the interests of longevity of the stab.) It's by no means a 100% solution; there is practically is no 100% solution to the problem, except to go with HPA.

Hrm... the thought just occurred to me. Given that liquid CO2 is such a problem for mags, and they KNOW that a lot of people run CO2 on them, aside from preferring HPA, why hasn't AGD produced an expansion chamber themselves? This isn't some other upgrade like a barrel or dropforward or something. But an expansion chamber, if it worked, would really affect the core of what an classic valve is and how it performs. If they feel comfortable slapping a big ol' battery pack on the front of the gun for an emag, why not invent a big ol' expansion chamber for the classics? I wonder if there are any messages or comments regarding this...


And now my flurry of smileys to indicate no ill will.

[danheneise]

soon to have hpa but right now i've ran mine on a plain remote co2 and shot as fast as possible that i can and it hasen't had any problems, the valve dosen't even get cold.

[Mav D MagMan]

Thanks Goatboy, I'll enjoy responding to this

Anyways back OT-

I will concede again, that factory conditions, home-testing conditions etc, don't really back up the real conditions that can happen on the field (I mean the marker never ended up totally upside down, probably never past horizontal the whole time, but it did find it's way around those 180 degrees)

I didn't deny the thermodynamics are the most important part (you sound like you'd understand what that meant, temp drawn from surroundings to phase change the liquid to gas) but I did wish to point out that well designed chamber can keep the liquid co2 down and out, solving the problem in the first place.

The sucking pure liquid chamber sounds somewhat dramatic, are you sure that's exactly what was happening (like you said, ACI can't even prove what's goin on inside)? I tech-ed with a kid who rus running pretty much a siphon chamber and it was pulling soo much liquid co2 that no chamber could have saved him, but haven't even heard of it in another situation.

I'm not speaking on behalf of ACI's blurb, but from the careful study of the internals of my 4x chamber itself! I just spent last week examining it, I really appreciated how simple (if slightly flimsy) the conical design was...

I also live close enough to their factory, know the people who work there, and might get a little sponsorship from them for my team (which isn't affected by pushing their products, I don't get ex chambers for this, I dont need or want them lol).. where was I? Oh yeah, ACI isn't a company out to steal money, I dont need to give a company history, I just feel I know them better than that...

I've never used an autococker in a game myself, but I've seen them fail, doesn't mean WGP is out to steal money or prey on people dude

I still stand by what I said, I didn't need to add gaslines, since it's what he'd need anyways, who runs without a marker setup without foregrip (Other than those crazy rec people with tippies) and some sort of asa these days anyways!?

I did forget the pack though, good catch.

Oops, gizmo=my opinion on the stab (not that it isn't a good product, I've seen/heard the stories). For the price of that you've got $$$ for N2 so what's the point?

Tk has already stated his position on Co2- "Co2 Sucks!" - Tom Kaye, I'd believe it. I started running HPA full time August, and refuse to go back!

As for co2 being a priveledge, I see it as more of a ball and chain, frosty fills suck and cost too much these days

Mav

[billybob_81067]

Goatboy...

Ever tried playing in the winter with CO2 and no expansion chamber? It doesn't work too well. Now throw on an expansion chamber and sure the gun will still freeze up, but you have to be continually firing at a pretty good rate where as without an ex chamber the valve will freeze easily with just a few shots.

Conclusion: Expansion Chambers do work!

Some people don't have the money for an HPA tank, or there's no place around to get them filled. As for me I live in a small farming community, population around 2000 and there's no paintball stores with the ability to fill HPA for at least 90 miles. Therefore I run CO2.

[GoatBoy]

Mav-

As far as the liquid in the chamber thing goes, I can't tell you what path the liquid will take in all points in between on the way out. But it's kind of simple, liquid goes in point A, and comes out the exit at point B. Since the chamber isn't spontaneously producing liquid, then it's being sucked through from the tank. I don't think it's that dramatic a situation... CO2 tanks have liquid in them, and the same "draining" mechanism that the ACI claims the expansion chamber is using is probably the same way liquid's going to dump out of the tank when it's tipped up and held at a level above the chamber, unless there's something about the fluid dynamics that I'm not understanding. I'm not saying CO2 won't *eventually* drain out of the chamber...

As far as ACI and WGP being fine upstanding companies... Uhm, well, they both still sell "Venturi" bolts. You can go to both their webpages and find them. The cocker failing thing is pretty beyond the scope of this thread...

The point of the stab was in case there was NO way he could run HPA.

I still see people running mags with the giant gasline on them, without vertical ASA's and gas-throughs. I just picked a used one up myself, and it's got that big gas line going from the angled ASA bottomline around the front, right up to the AIR.

In fact, take a look at Tom Kaye's gun setup in the ULE Trigger mpg file. Foregrip yes, gas through it, no.

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/1%20video/ULEtrigger.mpg

billybob-

Why, yes... Yes, I have tried playing during the winter with CO2 and no expansion chamber. Your anecdote more or less confirmed what I was actually saying earlier, not contradict it. I'll be the first to admit it: I habitually fire my gun continously at pretty high rates.

I understand that not everyone can run HPA. That's what I was referring to when I said

"But yes, you are right, this is sort of subject to HPA availability."

And in case you missed the main point of my entire argument, if he has enough money to pay for the other CO2 solutions, he has enough money to pay for an HPA system.





FYI, in my box o' paintball goodies (relevant to some of what we've been saying), there is a cocker, an ACI F4, two mags (one with a vertical ASA), an angled bottomline ASA, an expansion chamber (fortunately not ACI so it wasn't expensive), a palmer stabilizer, an ACI remote kit, an adjustable shoulder stock, and a 2+1 pack that holds a remote tank. It's all seen actual play time on the field.


So uhm... heh.... yeah, I've run the guns in a lot of configurations. Even in Winter!