RT Reactive level after firing and right before full reset

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I got an interesting tech question: With the XValve what is the estimated pull weight required at the start of the pull, center of the pull, and the end of the pull right before firing, and what is the exact weight of the reactive effect right at the point of firing, halfway back to resetting the bolt, and right before the bolt resets? Is there any difference in weights when the trigger is at these spots? And if the pull is lets say 3lbs and the reactive effect 6, wouldn't just always applying 3lbs of weight cause runaway in a sense? It seems like it always requires a little extra force to fire the next shot.

What if you kept 3lbs of pull weight on the trigger the whole way back to resetting and even when it resets, would this cause the sear to not fully lock and result in bolt wear? What about if you only applied 2.5lbs (like 85% of the weight needed?) does this cause extra wear?

Please respond, I am very curious about something. Thanks!

[Dayspring]

This may actually be better suited to Deep Blue... Tech is for problems really.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

tough call

It's a tough call, because although it is a higher end technical question it also relates to how specifically mags work and their technical functionality.

Mods, I trust your judgement so if you feel it is better in Deep Blue you are welcome to move it.

However, please at least SOMEone who know what they're talking about respond to this. Even if all you know if the pull weight of the Intelli/X setup and the retro effect weight with the medium spring. I am very interested and it's a legit, fair, and well-worded question. Thanks!

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

up

up, come on you're telling me no person who techs AGD markers knows this? It's a legit and honest question, help me out please.

[Kevmaster]

to fire the marker, we learned at the tech class it is around 3lbs pull. the kickback is around 9lbs...or three times the trigger pull. on the ULE Trigger, its 1lb and 3lbss respectively.

someone correct me if i remember wrong

[Dayspring]

Re: up

As I said. This is a Deep Blue issue. Tech is for FIXING guns...

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
up, come on you're telling me no person who techs AGD markers knows this? It's a legit and honest question, help me out please.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

legit

Dayspring, it's a legit and honest TECHnical question about avoiding early bolt wear by not keeping steady pressure on the trigger when using the retro effect. This weekend at Boston Paintball I noticed I can kind of ride the pull, keeping good pressure on the trigger to let it reset then only need to push with an extra couple ounces to shoot again because I already have a fair amount of pressure on the trigger. It proves very effective for keeping a steady 3-4BPS smacking the corner of a bunker to keep someone in and not go so fast it absolutely empties my paint. Not fast, but effective for rec play. However I am concerned by doing this I might not be allowing the sear to reset fully. The trigger needs enough forward force to fully instead of partially engage.

So... That is why I am asking about if the retro effect is weaker at the end of the return due to a loss of acceleration in the push on the pin due to the pressure in the valve slowing down in acceleration when it gets near the desired psi or because a larger space exists above the pin and has more space to fill and therefore loses acceleration in that manner. If this is the case keeping the same pressure on the trigger would result in the next shot cycle possibly happening before the sear has a chance to fully lock and could result in the same damage that runaway does. Hence, my reference to runaway aka sweetspotting. If it does then I need to make sure I always release the trigger fully so I am not damaging my sear and bolt by doing this. If the retro is full force right through to the end of the minimum distance the trigger has to move forward to reset properly then I am ok and not damaging my Mag.

It's not fixing a problem I have now, it's preventing something I am doing from causing a problem and requires a more technical response than "check your reg seat" "change your carrier to the next largest size" and such which resolve problems with evident symptoms. It's still teching though and related to a possible evolving problem. And I'm also seeing if my trigger pull style needs to be fixed.

Dayspring, sorry for any confusion and I hope this clarifies why I posted here and elaborates on why I'm curious, my Mag works fine but I'd like to keep it that way. As I said in the post before the one you quoted, if the Mods deem this appropriate to move I respect their judgement. So no chance you would know the figures?

Quick edit: Kevmaster, thank you for responding. I wish I could go to tech classes but monetary and time-commitment reasons prevent it. I appreciate your help and anything regarding the elaboration on this (change in retro effect) would be truly valued. Thanks again!

[Kevmaster]

im trying to figure out what you're asking...


btw, if you pull with 2.5lbs, the gun wont fire. it takes 3lbs pull to get the on-off pin up and the bolt latch down, 2.5 wont budge it

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

RT

Haha, yeah technical explanation isn't my best skill Kevmag, but thank you for keeping an eye on this and responding. I hope this clarifies it.

What I am wondering is basically what the pressure pushing back on the trigger is once a Mag fires. At the start it is 9lbs, I think you're right on with that, but when the trigger is halfway back to full reset is it still 9lbs pushing or has it dropped a little? And how about right before the sear resets? Still 9lbs or could it have dropped off a little bit for one reason or another? If it does and I'm pulling 3.1 lbs for example, and before the sear time to fully reset the reactive effect stops so that the gun will shoot without the bolt having fully reset, that would potentially catch the edge of the bolt and possibly chip it wouldn't it? Same if I am holding it with, for example, 5lbs pull. If I hold it, it will still reset because I have 9lbs pushing against my 5, but if the RT effect drops to 5lbs before reset it would stop the sear moving forward without the sear resetting and the bolt would be sitting on the tip of the sear.

I've always noted the trigger can be pulled a little before it actually reaches the point of firing, but it's well-known that keeping the trigger at that point through a trigger stop is bad because the bolt doesn't fully engage and the tip is all that's holding the bolt. That's what I want to make sure I am not doing by keeping pressure on the trigger.

Does that make more sense? Still not the best but it's hard without demoing what I mean. The nitty-gritty is what would happen if I kept 2.9lbs (or 14oz for the ULE) resistance on the trigger all the way through to the reset so I would only need to increase my pull weight by 1 ounce to fire? Is this ok with the RT effect or does it risk having the bolt or sear wear prematurely?

[Dayspring]

I understand WHY you posted here. But it'st still not the correct place. This is for fixing.

You're talking theory and stuff. That's what Deep Blue is for.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

tech/blue

Dayspring, if I post in Deep Blue someone will make the remark that it involves preventing issues and not about discussion of function or airgun principles and that it should be in tech... there's arguments for both. It's grey zone, you've made your argument, if the mods decide to move it they know why you think they should and as I've said if the MODS decide it is more appropriate elsewhere I respect their judgement and I will respect their decision but I assume they would understand my thought pattern as to why I have posted it here and agree this is the most appropriate. So if they do, cool, but you've made your point already, in fact overkilled it. It's not hurting you or causing a massive interference by it being here, if you really have some crazy issue/pet peeve regarding it, email a mod complaining about it being here and ask them to decide but they'll probably think you're overreacting. I know you're good with tech issues and I usually agree with what you post, why don't you just respond with your knowledge and once I get a conclusive answer from one or two sources I'm done with this, simple as that. You could have ended it ages ago by saying something along the lines of the following:

"QMG, the RT pressure at the end of the return when the sear fully engages is (some amount) so therefore (result on pull and the resolution to my issue). By the way, this is technically a Deep Blue topic so could you move it there if you wish to continue it? Thanks."

That would solve the issue, make your point in a respectful manner, and I would be far more receptive to it than the way you have handled it. So go argue with a mod or just relax.

[afrankart]

I don't think that shooting it the way you do, by keeping some constant pressure on the trigger then upping it to fire a few times a second is going to hurt anything. I think that is how most people with RT's shoot them. I know I do, and besides, at 4-8 bps the sear has tons of time to reset.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

sear

That's what I'm thinking afrankart, I think not changing the balance of the sear (reshaping it) so I think it has the sear far enough forward to reset, I am just wondering about that last little bit and confirming it's not an issue. Thanks for your input, I learned the trigger myself so didn't really look around to find out how others were shooting, the way I do it is just what is comfortable to me.