'Mags and CO2, another angle...

[JKR]

'Mags and CO2: everyone who is able to read and comprehend understands that there are limitations due to the 'Mag design. Many threads and countless hours have been devoted to trying to get the mighty 'Mag to run well on CO2. The primary problem with it, as we all know, is frozen orings/seals. Hundreds, if not thousands of 'Mag users have converted to HPA as a result.

However, has one obvious issue been addressed? Could orings and seals be developed that wouldn't freeze up but still do their job? Delrin perhaps? Dunno... just a thought. Can't say I recall seeing a discussion on oring material.

Seems like technology has grown by leaps and bounds but our orings still perform as they did in the late 80s. Surely NASA has orings that will not freeze. Maybe Tom should take a fact-finding trip to Houston or Florida.

JKR

[RRfireblade]

It's not really worth the effort.

Mags (classic) were designed on CO2 and work fine on it.As for liquid CO2,you really shouldn't get that in any gun that wasn't designed to 'go liquid'(any thing with a Reg pretty much).

As everthing else,technology moves forward and you must move with it.HPA is an improvement on CO2 as is the R/T over the classic.Either get up to date or live in the past.

[JKR]

Guess I will live in the past. :)

Seriously, many like myself don't have access to HPA. The only field within an hour can only fill to 1500 on a good day. Plus, I play a fair amount of renegade 'ball with no access to HPA.

Seems to me that if AGD improved the performance of the Classic 'Mag on CO2, it might open up a large part of the rental and rec market that still uses CO2.

Whether the many believe it or not, CO2 does offer some advantages over HPA besides just cost. Granted, it does have limitations, but for most it would perform just fine. One thing keeping me from buying a 'Mag is it's performance limitations on CO2.

JKR

[RRfireblade]

I ran a Classic mag on CO2 for MANY years.As did AGD and the thousands of Mags that WERE and are used for rentals around trhe country,BTW.

It's runs fine in it IMO.You have to keep the liquid out of any regulated gun,it's not just a MAg or the o-rings,it's a matter of function.That's the only prob w/ CO2,and freeze proof o-rings aren't going to change that.Unless you like to shoot 400fps+ every so often.:)

[JKR]

Well, I doubt that rental 'Mags run in the thousands, even cumulatively from the early 90's until now. The bulk of rental gear are Tippmanns, as we all know. Additionally, those fields using 'Mags as rentals probably didn't use them much in cold weather. Most probably shut down and wait for warm weather, as do many outdoor fields. The winter months is typically a prime time for renegade play.

As for regulated guns ingesting liquid, Palmer has built a reputation on his regs eating liquid CO2 and spitting out usable gas. Why can't the reg on the 'Mag do a better job? Everyone with a little sense knows precautions should be taken to prevent liquid from entering any 'gun (unless you still shoot a 68 Special!) but as the manual states, 'Mags become temperamental when the mercury drops below 50. Around these parts, that is a good portion of the playing year.

By the way, orings and seals that maintains flexibility at extremely low temperatures would seem to be a relatively cheap solution to part of the 'Mags problem with CO2. I definitely think it would be "worth the effort."

JKR

[RRfireblade]

Mags were big time rentals in a lot of places,if not near you.Tippys are currently so,do to mass production and lower cost.

Low temperatures are a CO2 prob not a mag prob.

Palmers regs work as they do 'cause they keep liquid from passing thru the Reg. MaxFlows do so as well.


But.......

You seem to have your opinions all figured out.

So.......best get started researching those o-rings then.:)

Good luck.

[abunkerer]

Fox River Games in Illinois has been using mags for rentals for a long time (over 10yrs). I remember when I bought my mag in 1993 I used Co2 with it without ever freezing my orings or having to replace them. I had a big *** expansion chamber (so did everyone else those days) and an antisiphon tube in the tank. The automag68 was THE tournament gun at that time, and Co2 was used in those tournaments without a problem.
As with any gun you need to keep the liquid co2 from getting into the gun. Not only does it cause guns to freeze up, but it causes severe shot to shot inconsistency. When liquid feeds into any gun and expands during firing fps can spike dangerously high.
It is fairly easy to run most guns reliably off co2, as long as the Co2 is allowed to expand and the pressure is regulated but the set ups are just as costly as N2 systems and are generally heavier, and even the best ones are still not going to be as consistent as a N2 system.
If co2 is your only option then a mag is still a great choice! Before N2 or compressed air was around Mags were the gun to own. Timmpans and autocockers were around but couldn't keep up

[JKR]

Not sure what the Fox River crew wanted with their 'Mags but I have some old magazines showing the Fox River Games Hypermag designed to run at higher pressure.

Skirmish used 'Mag rentals also and still may for all I know.

I realize that the 'Mag has been around about as long as my Sniper II, but what got me thinking about this was this thread...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126154

Anyway, yes I do have my opinions all figured out. That's why they why I brought them up.

[abunkerer]

that thread just shows that a mag will work just fine as long as the gas being used (co2)is properly regulated. has nothing to do with the orings.

[JKR]

Yes, but throughout, everyone mentions AGD saying specifically NOT to use CO2 on the RT. Also, the oring and seal issue is mentioned early in the thread.

[barrel break]

well, i am FORCED to live in the past, no HPA fills here

[RRfireblade]

Only "forced" if you have no dive/scuba shops either.

I was in the same boat here as well.Just finally had enough and picked up a used scuba tank($75)and never looked back.

CO2's not as bad as most people say,and MANY other high end guns recommend only HPA so it's not just R/T mags.