classic valve angst

[Bobsbarricades]

We all know the classic valve is "capped" at around 16bps.

(that was in a post at deep blue and was aparently a corect statement)

well...id like to know why they tell me to get an x-valve then? this really pisses me off. everytime i try and come up with a way that i dont have to spend like 300 dollars to get really fast rate of fire for temporary snap shots, i get shot down. How in the world do i get anywhere near that rate of fire with my classic valve?

[brianlojeck]

not to ask a stupid question, but why do you need to shoot faster then 16bps when snapshooting?

given the time it takes to lean out, stop your momentum, eye the aim of your gun, and then lean back in, does getting two balls out in .125seconds vs .0675 seconds really make that much difference?

[Bobsbarricades]

no if its only 2 balls. but what if you launched 6 balls instead?? thats what my goal is

[Chris42050]

Yeah I think thats a decent question. My friend uses compressed air and a classic valve and he has trouble with shootdown too (is that what you are talking about?). He's pretty quick with his double trigger. Faster than me with my Angel. Man I miss pumps.

[brianlojeck]

>no if its only 2 balls. but what if you launched 6 balls instead?? thats what my goal is

just my own short-bus opinion here, but if your shooting 6 balls, that's not snapshooting, that's shooting. ;-) In a case like this the limit to the gun's speed isnt' going to be the valve, but the trigger. a normal human simply cannot (unless I'm proven wrong) fire 6 shots on a standard mechanical trigger in any kind of time period required to call it a "snap" shot. The travel and force required are simply too much.


>Yeah I think thats a decent question. My friend uses compressed air and a classic valve
>and he has trouble with shootdown too (is that what you are talking about?). He's pretty
>quick with his double trigger. Faster than me with my Angel. Man I miss pumps.

I suspect he's shortstroking in an effort to shoot faster. Double-finger triggers can actually make it EASIER to shortstroke, since the trigger's travel at the bottom of the trigger (where your main driving finger goes) is twice as long as it is in the normal shooting position.

See if the problem remains when he removes his fingers from the trigger between each shot. Just using my own hand as a test bed I've found it doesn't affect the ROF all that much, but makes it almost impossible to short-stroke.

I may seem like i'm nay-saying here, but in all honesty I have NEVER seen someone who could outshoot a classic valve without an electronic gripframe that they could walk (or one of those wierd roller/hairwind contraptions).

[jesseyo13]

I agree with brian, 6 balls isnt snap shooting, 6 balls is shooting. Just practice, I could get about 8-10 on my classic with a single trigger in short burts. I would get a double trigger frame, that helps some too.

[Bobsbarricades]

i guess im askin to much. I wanted to be able to stay out just as long as my snapshot and instead walk 6 balls, not the 2-3 i get now. what i know would be great is if i could get a spyder electro frame and a ule trigger kit and a 50 gram clicker. But the ule doesnt work on classic valves...

[brianlojeck]

The emphasis for a good snapshot (mine is TERRIBLE by the way, but I'm working on it) is on the SNAP, the quick movement back into cover. Those one or two shots need to be quick and accurate.

I always figure a good snapshot is one done quickly enough that the guy your shooting at could have you posted, know exactly where you plan to come out of cover, have a bead drawn on you, and you get back out of his way before his first ball gets to you. You won't have time to "walk" any shots in that situation, because you'll be back behind cover before your ball hits (in theory anyway).

rather then spending the money on a new valve, buy that much paint, and shoot it on the target range, practicing your snapshots by leaning out from behind something. after $2-300 worth of practice you'd be terrifyingly good IMHO.

(and no, range time isn't the same as game time, but you can learn things there you can't learn under fire.)

[Bobsbarricades]

i have the same mindset as you but i need you to do something for me... just move you hand and ur hand alone from the left to about a foot to the right. fire two shots single handedly, then see how in the same time frame you can fire 5 shots by walking

now do you see what im talkin about?

the 16bps would opnly come in handy when offering cover fire or whilst unloading from the snake

[brianlojeck]

I'm not sure I understand what your asking me to prove, but I think I understand your point (at least a little)

being able to lay paint is important, but with a classic mag and a standard trigger you are NOT going to outshoot the valve. If your getting shootdown I still suspect the issue is short-stroking of the trigger.

I have pretty slow fingers, so I'm sure you can shoot faster, but it took me a LOT of practice to be able to lay out 6-8bps with my single-finger trigger. When I first started I'd have all kinds of trouble at that speed. the bolt would stick, the gun would leak and spit and hiss, and I'd chop paint like no tomorrow. The shootdown was so bad I almost went to a cocker.

I did EVERYTHING I could find to this gun. I filed, I drilled, I polished. I did a full Ravi trigger job, beveled my sear, polished my on-off pin. I had shortened my trigger rod so the frame became a backstop, I had lengthened my trigger rod so the safety became a backstop.

I was about to break out my drill for a 7-hole mod when I read, and really thought about the exact sequence of how the gun works. Then I started practicing to make sure I didn't short-stroke the trigger and short-fill the dump chamber. I've got the gun almost fully back to stock, unpolished parts, and it works wonderfully.

Trust me, the gun is faster then your fingers.

Funny thing is, I recently had a chance to shoot an RT Pro with a preset tank and a stock single-finger trigger. It felt loads better, because the trigger kicked a little bit, but I couldn't really shoot noticeably faster, because the trigger was the same. With bad triggerwork it still short-stroked and had shootdown issues, I just had to really think about it to force it to shortstoke.

[Bobsbarricades]

ooo, im sorry, my post wasnt because i had trouble short striking of down shooting. Its all pretty consistant, and i get about 6 bps, but with my friends spyder imagine with his 250 gram siwtch, i can pull 5 shots during a snap. thats what i wanna do to my spyder. I saw the spyder trigger frame mods, and got real excited because e-mags are rediculous, but I can't freakin get it because i need a ult kit and to get a working ult i need an rt valve...... its almost as if agd knows this and designed it against me. I wouldnt be suprised, its great marketing... i still dont have to like it.

heres my question. my friend bought a booya trigger frame (back when they were still out) and said his boya frame made his mag feel like he had an rt on it.... do the frames, namely the intelliframe, change the way the gun fires? it sounds like a dumb question, but i need help

[brianlojeck]

ooo, im sorry, my post wasnt because i had trouble short striking of down shooting. Its all pretty consistant, and i get about 6 bps, but with my friends spyder imagine with his 250 gram siwtch, i can pull 5 shots during a snap. thats what i wanna do to my spyder. I saw the spyder trigger frame mods, and got real excited because e-mags are rediculous, but I can't freakin get it because i need a ult kit and to get a working ult i need an rt valve...... its almost as if agd knows this and designed it against me. I wouldnt be suprised, its great marketing... i still dont have to like it.

(looks back at the thread)
I guess... I guess I REALLY misread what we were discussing. I'll go back to my corner now. ;-)

heres my question. my friend bought a booya trigger frame (back when they were still out) and said his boya frame made his mag feel like he had an rt on it.... do the frames, namely the intelliframe, change the way the gun fires? it sounds like a dumb question, but i need help

no clue, strictly a stock trigger man, don't like .45 grips with a stock. AFAIK, however, the intelliframe is a stock trigger frame with a microswitch in it, so I'd guess it's the same feel as any other AGD frame.

[Bobsbarricades]

microswitch?

i hear you on the 45 feel. It can feel huge. I tried the stock frame and my only complaint was that it rubbed up on my weenis to much. (just in case you dont know, thats the part of your hand that is inbetween your thumb and index finger. the skin there)

btw, whats afaik?

[brianlojeck]

>microswitch?

A very small switch, like a mouse button. the Inteliframe is the grip frame with the jack to control your powered loader, right? that control jack has a switch of some sort so the loader knows when to turn on and off again. (I dont' own one, so I could be way off base)

>i hear you on the 45 feel. It can feel huge.

huge isn't my problem, I have gigantic hands. the angle of the m-16 grip suits me better, especially with a stock on my shoulder.

>I tried the stock frame and my only complaint was that it rubbed up on my weenis to much.
>(just in case you dont know, thats the part of your hand that is inbetween your thumb and
>index finger. the skin there)




>btw, whats afaik?

As Far As I Know

[Bad_Dog]

But the ule doesnt work on classic valves...

um... yeah it does people say it doesnt work.... but I've got my mag setup with it, and so do 2 of my teammates... and then theres another local guy that has it...

heres a link:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=110976