The recharge difference between x-valve and classic

[McMagaman]

Hi i would like to know if any knew the technical differences between the x-valve and classic valve. What makes the x-valve recharge faster than the classic. If anyone had some clear diagrams of these valves I would like to see them. So I can see the specific differences in the engineering between the two.

[i_baked_cookies]

go to airgun.com and you can get an exploded view of the classic and of the xvalve, or rt. the classic i think tops out at like 14 or 15 cps, the xvalve has been tested to like 35 cps.

[Dayspring]

Unfortunately, the exploded diagrams don't explain what's going on inside the valve.

I do have a few diagrams from the AGD Tech class at IAO this year that DO show you the differences, I'll have to see if I can scan them in.

[toymyster]

There are a few animations that explain the whole thing!! First thing, the X-valve, as the all the RT valves, recharge under full input pressure, and the regulator cuts the flow off when the chamber reaches operating pressure!! That is why the higher your input pressure, the faster the valve recharges and the harder the on/off pin is reset, therefore more reactivity!!! Hope this helps!!!

[athomas]

In the classic valve, the air source passes through the regulator on the valve and then into the front chamber. The output of the regulator is always constant at the set pressure required to reach desired velocity, so the pressure differential is never greater than max velocity pressure minus the residual chamber pressure. This dictates the maximum flow of the regulator. The regulator is a restriction in the line.

The retro valve chamber is filled direct from the air source as it passes through a regulator controlled shutoff. When the front chamber is filling, the pressure differential is the air source (bottle) minus the residual chamber pressure. The result is a much higher pressure differential so there is higher initial flow and the chamber fills up much faster.

[hitech]

I do have a few diagrams from the AGD Tech class at IAO this year that DO show you the differences, I'll have to see if I can scan them in.

I'd like to see those myself.

[McMagaman]

I would really like to see those diagrams if you could post them in this thread Dayspring so everyone can have a look. I've seen the ones on airgun.com before and they didn't help me much because it looks like my classic valve because the diagrams aren't that great. I'm not quite understanding what athomas is saying is it the regulator on the classic valve that is the bottleneck on the recharge rate or is it the front part of the air valve? Diagrams would really help me with an explaination but im usually pretty good at firguring things out on my own if i could find a good diagram.

[McMagaman]

Also I have another question will HPA make the classic valve recharge faster or the same rate when using co2.

[athomas]

All regulators restrict flow. Some are better than others. Higher pressure differential creates better flow rates than lower pressure differential.

The bottleneck in the mag valves is at the on/off pin for both valves. In the retro valve the pressure differential is higher that of the classic valve due to the way the regulator works. Therefore the flow rate is higher in the retro valve.

Both valves function the same for firing the ball because the front chamber and powertubes are identical. Only the regulators are different.

[McMagaman]

The reason I was asking this was i want to replace the regulater on my classic valve with a better regulator. I researched this earlier but found unclear information that this wouldnt work because the regulator has to be near the ON/OFF. I still wish I had more detailed information about the operation of these 2 valves. Is there a difference between the ON/OFF of the classic and x-valve. I got a ULT in my classic valve right now and it is working pretty good as long as i dont short stroke it when trying to fire to fast and the ball only goes 15 feet out i thought this was shoot down at first. I thougt this was shootdown cause i was shooting to fast but i heard the classic valve is capable of 16bps so this is probably not the case. I don't believe i could be shooting that fast. Well after all this rambling I would just like to know my original question of this thread any help would be greatly appreciated so i could have a higher understanding of this. Thanks for any help.

[Dayspring]

Yes.

Is there a difference between the ON/OFF of the classic and x-valve.

[McMagaman]

May i ask what the difference is.

[Dayspring]

No.

May i ask what the difference is.

[hitech]

Dayspring,

any chance of getting a copy of the diagrams?

[athomas]

The reason I was asking this was i want to replace the regulater on my classic valve with a better regulator. I researched this earlier but found unclear information that this wouldnt work because the regulator has to be near the ON/OFF. .

The regulator in the classic valve is a very good regulator. It has excellent flow. The output pressure of the regulator is the final operating pressure that the mag uses to propel the ball at the desired velocity. At this pressure, you can only get so much flow rate past the on/off pin. You could probably reduce some time off the recharge if you had a very large air reservoir at the opening of the on/off in order to maintain a constant input pressure (no drops). Having a large pressure vessel hanging off your valve would not be practical, however. By locating any regulator farther from the valve, you would be introducing additional flow restriction due to air line friction. This would compound the recharge problem of the classic valve.

The retro valve regulator is integrated with the operation of the on/off and can't be relocated.

The difference in the on/off pin between the standard and retro valve is that the classic valve has the same diameter throughout the length of the pin and the retro on/off has a large top but a smaller bottom. The large top provides surface area to maintain enough return force on the trigger of the gun. The large diameter also provides a large enough opening to allow adequate flow to recharge the valve. This is true on both valves. The smaller bottom of the retro on/off pin allows a reduced pull force, when firing the gun. So, the pull force on the retro valve is less than that of the classic valve.

The ULT on/off has a smaller top and tiny bottom. The tiny bottom of the pin makes the pull force very light. The smaller top makes the trigger return lighter as well. This reduces the reactive effect that you feel. The higher return pressures of the retro valve regulator allows the ULT to function very well. The lower regulator pressures of the classic valve makes the ULT a hit or miss proposition when one is installed. It will most certainly be more prone to short stroking and may suffer shootdown due to reduced on/off top size.