New marker design.. 2x tube bclosed bolt, lots of detail.

[Cha0tic]

ok, i'm on the internet via satelite from my cruise ship. i looked over the design and read about the air escaping from the back of the marker. why don't you put an oring around the outside of the bolt near the back? kinda like on a spyders bolt.

[Vegeta]

Thats what that blue thing is... but i am saying that when the powertube comes back to let a ball drop in, the oring would go out hte back of hte gun, allowing air to escape. So I fixed taht by simply moving the end part of hte powertube up.

[tranman]

If you think about it its not really a closed bolt marker. The air that is rushing out would be coming at the same time the bolt is moving forward, in a true closed bolt design the bolt is all the way forward before the air comes to the ball

[Vegeta]

Well soem peopel would consdier it closed bolt, some would not. Peopel would not becuase of what you just said.
Peopel would, becuase in its "Ready" position (btw.. this thing is always cocked, if it is not gased up and you pull the trigger, it will open the bolt) it is closed. So thats debatable.

Also, last night while lookign at printed diagrams I have.. i was tryign to figure out the sear problem and realized that, if the sear is held down, as logn as there is enough air to blow the powertube forwards, then that mainspring will kepp pushing hte bolt back and hitting hte valve pin, therefore making it full auto. I am not sure yet if the air has enough strength to botl the assembly forword or not, but a blowback vent vavle would render hte same effect.
So you could use it as a semi auto by putting in a SS trigger (much liek that of a M98, the trigger pulls hte sear back, botl goes forward, but the sear goes right back up, even though the trigger is pulled.) and that would allow single shots. But you could just have it to where as long as you are pullign that trigger, the sear is down. semi-auto would be cpable in full auto, but it would be hard to control, much like the SMG's were back in the day. overshootign players accidentally would be a problem for those heavy on the trigger.

Lemme knwo how you peopel feel on this.

[pbjosh]

Here are some thoughts

[ciaran.mooney]

Someone please animate this thing cos i cant really see it properly.

[Vegeta]

Your new bolt in your pic is a mag assembly, pretty much. I have modeled a demo in 3D Studio already, and Have mode some modifications. It will work like a blowback with air assit blow foreward. man this is complicated since teh bolt is backward. Ok there will be a spring behind the pin in the valve. The valve pin has a almost springiny reation when gassed up. The botl will hti it and the air will go up and out, creting a semi-blowforward. As you said, this probably wont be enought ot lug that heavy assemble back forward. But hte bounce of the valve pin will give the bolt enough umph to get back. Hopefully. A bit of blowback gas would be used to get the bolt back too. Now, for hte choppign problem. I, on my model, changed a few things that will give the thing enough time. You must rememebr ti takes a little time forthe valve to get that air out of there and a little tiem for the air to go aroudn that turn and out hte tube.

Give me 30 minutes and Ill have fully 3D animation done.

[ciaran.mooney]

Yay!

[pbjosh]

First of all,

NO, the valve spring will not have enough UMPHFF to push the hammer forward. At all. EVER.

Second, the air will take a little time to get up into the bolt. 1-2 milliseconds. Or, about 1/500 of a second, and then the air WILL be in the feed. It take 5-6 ms for the ball to get ALL the way down the barrel.

Again, without a huge change in the bolt, the air pressure will hold it OPEN, and won't close it.

The air will bleed out of the venturis before it even begins to push the bolt forward.

The bolt will be in the back position when the hammer hits the valve, and the paint will not have time to feed.

Why hasn't someone else come up with this design? Because it won't work.

Josh

[Vegeta]

Think how a blowback gun works. Blowback gas from the valve pushed the bolt back over the sear. I have changed the valve workings from just relying on 'blowforward' to that blowback gass pushignthe botl back (there will ahev to be vents put in the vavle which I left out of my animation.)
So it CAN work. It won't be blowforward though.
From my animation you can see that the powertube (I modifyed it from my original drawings) comes back penty far to let the ball drop in.

[pbjosh]

Okay, you are still not getting the idea.

The bolt/hammer assembly will go back and hit the valve. Before the valve can even be OPENED ALL THE WAY, air has already exited the gun. In 1/1000 to 1/500th of a second.

The bolt will have been open 1-2 millisec before the valve is hit. That is NOT enought time for the ball to drop. PERIOD.

And, If you think about the blowback guns designs on the market right now, the bolt/hammer assembly comes all the way forward, lauched a ball, and the etc, before the bolt cam even move back 1/8" And you think you can get a bolt to seal while it travels over 1" forward, and then not vent out the bolt, well...

I have been playing for over 10 years. I worked with Doc Nickel. I have a gun design coming out, hopefully, this fall.

I have been around the block. AS it sits, Your design WON"T work.

Josh

[Vegeta]

Well thats why i'm here... TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET IT TO WORK.

There's a way to do it.
It might take time, but it can work.
This isn't my only gun design. I have many otehrs, including double tube blowforawards which I have mentioned on this before.

Not that I am not interested in your desings, Pbjosh. I would like to see them.

Now I belive I mentioned how the SMG-60 and some SMG-68's were full auto. Well, beign the expert you are, josh, Im sure you know that they were classifyed as an open bolt, yet really never had a front bolt. they had a striker, or hammer (which some call a bolt) that hit a valve. The valve was actually two valves. There was a front hole where the gs exited to propell the ball, and a back vent, where blowback gas would exit the valve and propel the bold back to its home over the sear. If the sear was held down, the mainspring would push the hammer back towards the valve and the process would start over. But you knew that right.
But eventually the spring would overpower the blowback gas, little by little, and after a clip of shots with the sear held down it would sound liek hte typical Tippmann on a low tank.
pop pop pop pop pop pop popopopopoppoo.. burp.
The bolt stroke would be shorter and shorter till it did not have enough energy from the mainspring to hit the pin hard enough.
But this can be bypassed, in my theory.
In place of blowback gas moving the hammer back, there could be a small gasling that would go out the valve, and use that blowback gas and put it into a small piston wth release valve. This way, every time the pin was depressed by the valve, gas would exit the front, buu also exit the side and propell the piston, and hammer, backwards with more force than just the regular gas burst. This way the spring could never overpower the gas, creating true full auto in a mechanical gun. Of course, there could be a selector switch, as in an AT series, that chooses weather the trigger hold down the sear, or uses a single shot mechanism where you can hold the trigger down, but the sear will only realese, then pop back up, like I said before.

So thats anotehr gun. Will that work Mr. PBJosh?
I wish I had one and soem parts to try it out.

[pbjosh]

Well,

The reason the SMG didn't have a bolt is because the clip feed system was the breech. The SMG didn't have to run a bolt back and forth, because the breech changed to another one that had a ball already loaded. That a simple one. Also the VERY heavy 1lb bolt didn't cycle that fast with such a small valve leaking a bit of CO2 Liquid out of it. the 68 Special that came right after it had the standard setup, with the bolt being pushed by the hammer forward, and even had a funky partial nylon slide that indexed the bolt kinda like the trigger slot on the three way of a Cocker or the slingshot bolts made for the cocker. This allowed the the bolt to stay closed longer. And it still had blowback. One of my favorite guns. I took out some of my teammates 5 games in a row with it. I had two newbies on my side. They didn't get to do much as I shot out the 'mag, 'cocker, and spyder before they got much chance. The stock tippmann barrel was great. Of course, that was when they were annodizing them.

Oh yeah, a huge upgrade from the SMG's steel barrel, that had a tendancy to rust. And were just never really good.

Yes the tippmanns are open bolt blow back. I am not stupid.

And actually, the first closed bolt blow back was made some 7-9 years ago by a person who took a Vm-68, added a spring from a mag to the hammer, and built a ring that sealed with the front of a hammer. The ring was connected to the bolt. The bolt would be in the closed position, and the hammer would be at the cocked position. The disconnecting sear would let go of the hammer, then the hammer would strike the valve. The ball would fly, then the pressure from the valve on the hammer and ring would push the hammer and ring back. The hammer would reconnect with the sear, and the bolt would go back forward from the spring pressure behind it, indexing another ball, leaving it in the closed position.

There you go, a closed bolt blowback.

Now, for your piston/hammer thing:

If you used a normal blow back gun, with that assembly, and used SMALL passages for the piston, it might go slow enough to load paint. Of course, the normal blowback to the hammer does the same thing and is much simpler all the way around. If you think you can outsmart everybody, and just end up with afullauto only design, go for it. But Tippmann has another example of this for you.

Look at the Tippmann F/A! That was a great gun, but the dual piston linkage thingy in the back that was meant to SLOW the hammer down was there for a reason. And it still needed a spring wound force feeder. Silly you. The hammer would cycle way to fast for paint to feed without it. And even had problems with keeping it slow enough as was. And never take those piston thingies apart. A real pain to put back together.

As for my designs, I will give you a link to pbnation:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36097

also a bit from an email from Hans at Racegun:

"My opinion is, as you have a completely unique gun - what I'd call the first Nelson based semi, without hammer to boot - you should go for BMW image, positioning the Shiva (brilliant name!) up front with the premium tournament guns. Aim for Angel, custom Cocker, Matrix and Impulse."

And he has seen the design, but it held by a Non-Disclosure Agreement.

How about you? I will sign a NDA, and even give you plenty of info and advice, but you need to learn some more basics about the markers and have some experience with designing and building one yourself first.

Then go ahead and mock MR. PBJosh

(and the low blow) right after you learn to spell.

Happily yours,

Josh Coray,
Designer of the 'Shiva' Paintball Gun

[Vegeta]

Well josh.. you have got me now.
My intentions on the piston idea was that it would use small air line, like that of cocker pnematics. This, conencted to the piston, would supply more power than just a bit of co2 leaking out a hole in the back of the valve. This amount of force would also slow up the bolt around the point where the spring takes over and starts to push back (considering that the sear is held down) During this moment there would be a sort of equalibrium between both the spring and the piston, so this would cuase a bit of slow down. The BPS could be adjusted by adjusting the amount of gas the pistons recieves. A selector switch liek that of the AT series could be used to select weather hte sear can be held down or SS mode.
But thats another story.
Josh, I would really appriciate talking with you further about thsi stuff, now that I actualyl see you know what you doing! On the net, there is a fine line between ingenious and ingnorace .

[Vegeta]

Check this out.. I got htis from a fellow deisgn. We have been brainstormign for hte past several months lonkg at tons and tosn of ideas trying to get UNIQUEness. well, i thought this gun could be it. Until you people warned me of hte choppign/timing problem. Well he designed a 3way valve that can somehow solve hte problem. I don't fully understand it but maybe you will (he will give me mroe detailed pics of how it will react with my gun.)
This is how he said it wold work:
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1. Trigger is released sending a ac style bottom bolt into the valve
2. Valve opens allowing air in from right seal
3. Air pushes top bolt forward closing breech
4. air enters port 2(center port) passing unobstructed through to port 3
5. port three by this time is aligned with top bolt port and ball is fired.

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I don't get it quite yet but maybe someoen will. All I know is that he sounded excited and liek this would really make it work somehow.. remeber this is the actual valve not a 3 way like on a cocker.