Shootdown

[halfHP]

Ive owned 3 different automags - a classic, an rt and the X valve. I've always had shootdown problems with these guns - to varying degrees. I am hoping to get some good general information on how to reduce the shootdown on my current setup.

I have an X-valve with the Level 10 bolt and ULE trigger installed. I also have a Flatline 4500 with an 88cu tank from AirAmerica that was tuned up and connected to the bottle just recently by AGD. They appear to have set it for optimal operation with an X valve as it gives about 800psi constantly. I have an intelliframe with a blade trigger as well. (I only mention that because I dont know if a bladed design trigger promotes short stroking.)

When I set everything up, I constantly experience shootdown to one degree or another. Its not so bad that the paintball just falls right out of the barrel but it will occasionally ruin accuracy on bursts of 2-5 shots. I know these guns are supposed to be alot more consistent than this. I also know that short stroking can cause problems like this but my god, come on - how much of a perfectionist do you have to be to shoot an Automag? No other gun Ive shot in the past has a shortstroking problem anywhere near this level, if in fact it is short stroking that is my problem.

So I am wondering - maybe there are other things I can do to improve my situation? Any tips out there for me?

Thanks in advance!

Nick

[onakone]

Hey, it sounds like you could have a problem with the ult or lvl not being tuned correctly, in which case I might suggest you send it in to AGD. But if it is just shortstroking thats the problem you should check out this thread:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99593

SEAR MOD: CHUFF less with your ULT, still SAFE for your BOLT

If you haven't already seen this it might just help.

[SlartyBartFast]

Hate to ask, But how do you know it's "shootdown"?

Have you ever shot strings over a chrony that shows a drop-off? Could it be that YOU aren't as balanced shooting off 3-5 shots quickly when compared to shooting single shots?

Shoot down would be shown by all shots being lower than the first in a grouping. Messed up accuracy with a generally larger grouping would indicate bad shooting form.

[halfHP]

Hey thanks for the link Onakone.

I just spend 30 bucks on the new style sear though so I'm a little leery about drilling into it. Incidentally, what makes this little piece of metal worth $30 dollars? The old sear is only $15 (which is still a high price if you ask me) and the only real difference is the bushing which doesnt have a bearing or anything to warrant $15 more. And then they want $6.00 additional for the pivot screw...you would think it would at least come with the sear when you buy one. All I can say is after spending literally thousands on AGD products, its little things like this that are making me think about packing it in and going elsewhere.

Anyway, sorry for the little tyrade up there - the sear thing just got me thinking about a sore subject again.

Regarding how I identify it as shoot down:
-Even with a slow ROF the gun chronos about 5-15 fps difference between each shot, probably an average differential of maybe 5-7. All 3 guns have been like this right out of the box. I dont call that shootdown though. I call that inconsistency and I honestly dont know what the average tolerance for paintball guns in general is.

-When I shoot a rapid string of shots I can physically hear the difference in pressure behind some of the later shots.

-The shots that suffer from the shootdown always travel a shorter distance or land below the initial shot.

To me that all adds up to shootdown. I'm not ruling out possible poor form in my shooting while rapid firing, I'm just saying that of all the guns Ive shot, Ive always been able to get used to the way the trigger works and to compensate for it. With the Automag, I can place my finger in the trigger housing and bounce it between the trigger and the guard rail (allowing the trigger to completely return) and if I do it quick enough, shootdown still occurs. Dont get me wrong, the gun is definitely playable. It just sucks when I see someone else with a gun with similar specs that is absolutely smooth. And I've seen the videos on these forums where people are shooting like crazy with little or no shootdown at all - the deadlywind video springs to mind.

I've tried adding shims into the ULE trigger. Ive read that people have gotten up to 6 shims in there somehow, which seems utterly impossible as mine will not even fit into the body with more than 3. The shims seem to help but they also make the gun more reactive which is an unhealthy thing to get used to relying on I think.


Thanks for the insight thus far.

Nick

[Z-man]

I think you should simply bump your input pressure. While your lvl10 might need tuning that kind of problem would exhibit itself at any ROF. If you are experiencing shoot down when you start ripping away on your Mag, the simple, effective solution it to raise up your input pressure. Fortunately you have an adjustable tank so this is a quick 30 sec job for you.

Don't be too worried about overpressurizing your valve. You may have seen on it "Rates for 3000psi input" Even i you take it up to 11-1200psi it's not going to hurt anything. I suggest you raise it up to 900psi, play with it, raise it to 950-1000psi and play with it again. Try it out. You WILL notice a very distinct difference in both how crisp the return bunch on the trigger is and how it will keep up with you as fast as you can push it.

I have a lot of testing and documentation in this area and I feel confident in what I say. And for the heck of it since I am posting, I can link you to some of those more pretinent ones.

Preset vs. Adjustable tank thread & Video

Z-man's Video Archive on ZakVetter.com

All movies are QuickTime streaming. Hope this helps.

[halfHP]

Sounds good. That was more along the lines of what I was somewhat suspecting too. Ive had a few bad experiences with adjusting my Flatline so its one thing Ive been a little shy to do recently. Initially when I had it, there was some problem with it where at higher output pressures the regulator couldnt keep up with rapid firing and would end up going from an initial first shot with about 1000 psi down to 3-400 psi. I could actually sit there and watch the regulator gauge raise back to the preset pressure after about 2 seconds. That was with my old classic and rt guns though. Ive since then sent the flatline in for repair and have more or less been trying to leave 'good enough alone'.

I think I will try raising it again though, based on your suggestion.