RTP sear vs Classic?

[warbeak2099]

Ah I see, it's clearer now. Thanks Ryan. I didn't think the difference could be that big. The classic sear wears faster than the rtp but not really noticeably. Thank you.

Also, sorry for being annoying Rogue. I know you had already answered what the difference was. I wasn't being clear. I meant how big is the difference.

[RogueFactor]

Ah I see, it's clearer now. Thanks Ryan. I didn't think the difference could be that big. The classic sear wears faster than the rtp but not really noticeably. Thank you.

Also, sorry for being annoying Rogue. I know you had already answered what the difference was. I wasn't being clear. I meant how big is the difference.

Its actually a bigger difference than has been stated. With the RT/XValves and users now wanting their markers to *bounce*, the wear will be a bigger issue.

AGD has said quite a few times that bounce is not a good thing. The wear issue is one reason for that. Here is a VERY old link to the concept behind why bounce will wear sears quicker...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=290917&postcount=7

And will wear classic sears even quicker...

If you shoot your gun in "run away mode" with high input pressure you WILL destroy your sear and bolt. Better check them out they are probably toast. That's why we don't sell them that way or recomend you use them that way.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

Here is a more recent excerpt...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1347377&postcount=5

There is a good reason. When you bounce the sear on the RT valve the bolt rides the sear back to the home position. When the bolt comes all the way back, it bounces off the bumper and comes forward. If it was riding the sear, the sear has now moved up and catches the bolt on the rebound which acts just like a small hammer.

This pounding will eat up your sear and your bolt. Under normal pulls the bounce happens before the sear comes back up. This is also the reason we use a softer bumper on the RT valve.

See, there are intelligent reasons for everything we tell you.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

A Classic sear is not fixed, meaning it is has more "slop" in the y axis(up/down)-the sear drops in and nothing is holding it down except the changing forces of the pressure applied to it. Which isnt the case with the fixed sear assembly of the RT Pro/E-mag.

So, a Classic sear has a greater likely-hood under rapid fire conditions of riding the bolt and therefore greater wear.

Make sense?

[warbeak2099]

Eerrr, crap. What about with an e-frame mod such as the DevilMag? Will a user experience problems with the bolt and sear wearing down with that as well? I was thinking of one of the following:

Get adjustable tank so I can bounce
Do SpyderMag mod (spyder e-frame conversion) w/ a T-board
Get electro vert frame that's coming out (hasn't been announced on here yet, I've been talking with the guys making it)

If I do any one of those speed upgrades, will my classic sear and lvl 10 bolt wear down really fast? Should I consider switching to an RTP rail and sear combo if I want to speed my mag up?

[CoolHand]

You just can't let it go, can you. . . . . .

Unfortunately, its not as big a deal as you would like to make it out to be.

I have never, no never, seen a classic sear chipped or worn beyond use because of bounce, not once.

AND, if you did somehow manage to wear it out, the classic sears are a fair bit cheaper to replace (roughly half the cost).

So, you could change them twice as often and still be in the same $$ range.

The amount of slack you will see in a Classic sear, verses an RTP sear, is measured in thousandths of an inch. And the so called "fixed" portion of the RTP sear, is noting more than a bushing with ~30% more bearing area. You know what? The pin doens't run through an RTP sear any tighter than it does in a Classic sear. That clearance is near identical (if not exactly the same). The RTP sears are more stable if a torque is applied to them (because of the aforementioned wider bushing), but the sear acts in a single plane (IE no torques), so if its twisting, you've got bigger problems.

This is all just a feeble attempt to do diservice to my rails and bolster the position of your own competing product, while trying to maintain the veiled appearance of "just helping a guy out", or "just setting the record straight".

The first quote (taken out of context, and linked just a single post) was refering to an RTP sear, and is Tom's basis for the recommendation that you not bounce a Mag, ever. Not that you should not bounce a classic sear.

The second quote (again taken out of context, and linked to just a single post) is just a continuation of the "No bounce ever" stance that Tom has. It is in no way singling out one sear or the other as more susceptible to wear. He's saying that every sear will wear down if you bounce the marker, not just the classic sear.

Skillfully misquoted to be sure, but don't let him fool you kiddies.

Fight the hype.

[CoolHand]

Eerrr, crap. What about with an e-frame mod such as the DevilMag? Will a user experience problems with the bolt and sear wearing down with that as well? I was thinking of one of the following:

Get adjustable tank so I can bounce
Do SpyderMag mod (spyder e-frame conversion) w/ a T-board
Get electro vert frame that's coming out (hasn't been announced on here yet, I've been talking with the guys making it)

If I do any one of those speed upgrades, will my classic sear and lvl 10 bolt wear down really fast? Should I consider switching to an RTP rail and sear combo if I want to speed my mag up?

You really don't need to worry about the sear, if its in good shape now, it will remain so for a good long while.

If you are planning to run the electro frame, bounce will not enter into it, and may even be hard on the solenoid or whatever trips the sear (IE break it, if you hammer it too much). High input pressures will not incur RT bounce on the eframes, it will just hammer the sear against whatever is tripping it (which would be bad for that device, the sears are very hard).

Also, if you get the ROF up real high, I would worry about the LVL X kit, as you will wear orings out faster.

Other than that, you should be good to go.

[warbeak2099]

Ok, finally a crystal clear answer. I know you're not gonna get RT bounce with an e-frame. If I do go with an E-frame I'll be sure not to crank the tank up too high (if I have an adjustable by then). Maybe around 750-800psi. Also, what would you suggest I do to prevent the lvl 10 wearing out too rapidly? I already lube the carrier o-ring regularly and shoot oil through the valve. Anything else I can do to prevent the actual bolt from wearing down? Will BlackVGC's polishing mod help?
Also, this all sounds like you just cn't shoot a mag fast w/o wearing parts down rapidly. What's the deal? I know that can't be true. If I'm averaging about 20bps during games and I play once a week, will I be replacing bolts and whatnot all the time?

Thanks very much,
Pete

[CoolHand]

Ok, finally a crystal clear answer. I know you're not gonna get RT bounce with an e-frame. If I do go with an E-frame I'll be sure not to crank the tank up too high (if I have an adjustable by then). Maybe around 750-800psi. Also, what would you suggest I do to prevent the lvl 10 wearing out too rapidly? I already lube the carrier o-ring regularly and shoot oil through the valve. Anything else I can do to prevent the actual bolt from wearing down? Will BlackVGC's polishing mod help?
Also, this all sounds like you just cn't shoot a mag fast w/o wearing parts down rapidly. What's the deal? I know that can't be true. If I'm averaging about 20bps during games and I play once a week, will I be replacing bolts and whatnot all the time?

Thanks very much,
Pete

Its not the bolt that wears, so much as the PT oring. When that ring wears the ID bigger, the LVL X will go out of tune. That's all. The bolt won't be damaged or anything, you'll just have to tune your LVL X more often. If your EFrame has eyes, you can just swap the whole deal out for a LVL 7 foamie bolt (which doesn't rely so much on the fit of that oring, so it can tolerate the wear better).

You shouldn't have to replace a bunch of stuff all that often (not hard parts anyway), but if you shoot that fast with the LVL X, I'd expect to tune it every four to six cases, or maybe 8 if you oil it every time, and keep the grit out of your marker (IE run a little filter inline with your airsystem).

This whole deal got blow way out of proportion. Wear is not that serious of an issue, those sears are made of some hella hard and tough metal, definitely some kind of heat treated tool steel. If anyting, I'd expect the sear axle to go first, then the bolt, and then the sear, but that won't be for many thousands of cycles (many many).

I would just build the marker that suits your taste and budget, and enjoy it. Don't worry so much about all the attention paid to this little thing.

Have a good holiday.

[warbeak2099]

Ah, then I shall take very good care of my lvl 10 o-rings. Also, where can I get a filter for my airline? I've heard of these but don't know too much about them and/or where they go.

You have a good holiday as well.

[RogueFactor]

Unfortunately, its not as big a deal as you would like to make it out to be.

I have never, no never, seen a classic sear chipped or worn beyond use because of bounce, not once.

Ive seen plenty. You must not have worked on many mags.

AND, if you did somehow manage to wear it out, the classic sears are a fair bit cheaper to replace (roughly half the cost).

I guess that would depend on who you bought it from

[QUOTE=CoolHand]
The amount of slack you will see in a Classic sear, verses an RTP sear, is measured in thousandths of an inch. And the so called "fixed" portion of the RTP sear, is noting more than a bushing with ~30% more bearing area. You know what? The pin doens't run through an RTP sear any tighter than it does in a Classic sear. That clearance is near identical (if not exactly the same). The RTP sears are more stable if a torque is applied to them (because of the aforementioned wider bushing), but the sear acts in a single plane (IE no torques), so if its twisting, you've got bigger problems.[QUOTE=CoolHand]

Thousands of an inch is enough to do it. Which is why aftermarket parts often cause the problem. The spec to the sear pin hole on an RT Pro rail has a tolerance of .0005"(thats ten-thousandths of an inch kiddies) with 100% inspection. And the reason for that is the *thousands * of an inch slack you seem to think will cut the mustard.

This is all just a feeble attempt to do diservice to my rails and bolster the position of your own competing product, while trying to maintain the veiled appearance of "just helping a guy out", or "just setting the record straight".

My product? My rails are all AGD. End of story. There is little need to bolster their position...the quality speaks for itself.

It wasnt my self-proclaimed "loyal" follower that started this thread. It was yours. And you trying to make the sears appear to be the same, which they arent.

AGD created the superior sear for a reason, and it wasnt to make it more expensive

The first quote (taken out of context, and linked just a single post) was refering to an RTP sear, and is Tom's basis for the recommendation that you not bounce a Mag, ever. Not that you should not bounce a classic sear.

The second quote (again taken out of context, and linked to just a single post) is just a continuation of the "No bounce ever" stance that Tom has. It is in no way singling out one sear or the other as more susceptible to wear. He's saying that every sear will wear down if you bounce the marker, not just the classic sear.

Skillfully misquoted to be sure, but don't let him fool you kiddies.

Click on any of those links, and they too have a link to the original thread. I dont have to hide anything...do you?

Fight the hype.

I fight the hype, as I am confident that other AO'ers and maggers will as well...by buying AGD.

[CoolHand]

Ah, then I shall take very good care of my lvl 10 o-rings. Also, where can I get a filter for my airline? I've heard of these but don't know too much about them and/or where they go.

You have a good holiday as well.

You can go to McMaster Carr and look for part number 4414K32 .

That is an 1/8" NPT filter, male on one end, female on the other. It is 0.75" diameter, 2.313" long, and is made from anodized aluminum. Filters down to 40 microns (pretty friggin tiny) with a sintered bronze element. Flows 23 cfm at 100 psi (so you know its not gonna choke your system). The max working pressure is 500 psi, but you should be able to take it up to 800 psi without worry of 'splosion (at least not too much worry).

PPS might also sell something that will get the job done.

Also, be sure you oil that ring every day before you play (it will thank you).

[CoolHand]

My product? My rails are all AGD. End of story. There is little need to bolster their position...the quality speaks for itself.

I find it humorous that you see the things that you claim to have designed and have manufactured as being "all AGD". If you did the design work, then they are not AGD rails. If you designed your frame, then it can't be an AGD frame. You can't have it both ways. Either its original AGD, or its RPG, but it can't be both. If AGD is doing the design and manufacture for you, then you didn't actually design it, you asked them to, and just sell them.

So, which one is false?

I personally don't care, but I am getting damned tired of having to defend myself and my products from your attacks (veiled or unveiled).

Is your stuff made well? I'd imagine so. I've never touched any of your parts. Is my stuff made well? Yes it is. I wouldn't sell it if I wasn't confident of the quality.

This hostility is uncalled for, and frankly, quite irritating.

This is not your personal website, your standing here is the same as mine, I see no reason why you should be allowed to use innuendo and out of context quotes to sling mud whenever you see fit.

I manage to sell a lot of parts, without ever having to drag your stuff down, why can you not do the same?

I'm done here, I've said my piece.

Maybe over Christmas you will realize that you don't need to tear everyone else's product down, in order to sell your own. There are other ways to get the job done, which are much more civilized (and polite).

Have a good holiday Rogue.

[warbeak2099]

It wasnt my self-proclaimed "loyal" follower that started this thread. It was yours.

Excuse me but please do not try and drag me into your negativity. I never said anything bad about you I simply prefer Logic products. I'm quite sure your products are very good and superb quality as most of AO loves you, however I just prefer Logic's. I still respect you very much. You do not need to poke fun at me or call me any sarcastic names such as a "self-proclaimed loyal follower".

You guys shouldn't be arguing and especially shouldn't be dragging customers into it. This is AO, supposedly a place where decency can exist. Cmon, it's the holiday season. Why can't Logic and Rogue exist in friendly competition? Why can't we promote a positive atmopshere where people can sell their products without fear of getting flamed by their competitor(s)? That's what the rest of the industry is doing. No more hidden messages or inuendo putting down the competitor, no more fighting, no more acting like a bunch of little SP's. AO is supposed to be just the opposite. Let's keep it that way and keep this place something we can all be proud of. You guys should be buds, not bitter enemies. After all, we're all maggers...

[RogueFactor]

I find it humorous that you see the things that you claim to have designed and have manufactured as being "all AGD". If you did the design work, then they are not AGD rails. If you designed your frame, then it can't be an AGD frame. You can't have it both ways. Either its original AGD, or its RPG, but it can't be both. If AGD is doing the design and manufacture for you, then you didn't actually design it, you asked them to, and just sell them.

So, which one is false?

I find it humorous that the Logic Delta rail cut from an RT Pro rail can be a Logic rail, but that my stuff has to be one or the other of the two above.

Any part cut from an AGD part(like a SLUG Body) but cosmetically altered(like a few of the bodies availabe on the open market) can be both. Neither have to be false.

I personally don't care, but I am getting damned tired of having to defend myself and my products from your attacks (veiled or unveiled).

Me too, especially since I am not attacking you at all.

We make products that compete, and you know that.

You make and market your products any way you wish. You choose to diverge from AGD stuff, and thats cool. I applaude you for being different. But for you to get angry for having to defend that choice is just plain silly.

When it comes to the tolerance sensitive parts, I choose to use AGD goods. Guess what? It costs more to do so, and that comes out of my pocket. It also has a benefit. And I would be negligent not to point that out.

Pointing out the benefits (like a safety mechanism that you originally refused to put in your original Vert Frame) isnt attacking you. If you think it is, there isnt a damn thing I can do about that.

Instead, I hope that you do what you did with your vert frame. You go back, and make it better. You finally listened to your customer and changed the grip shape, added a safety, and changed the trigger.I applaude you for recognizing youd have to change your original design to meet your customers needs.Very smart man you are

I released the CAD of my Vert Frame many months ahead of my to give you the opportunity to get feedback and make any changes(if you chose to)---and you did!

I actually enjoy the competition, and I like you around here. It makes me work harder, and think harder, of how to make better parts for AO'ers. I guess what I am saying is that [Jerry MaGuire Voice] you complete me [/Jerry Maguire voice]

This hostility is uncalled for, and frankly, quite irritating.

Hostility? You must read more into my posts than are there. My first contact with you ever was in extending help to you(many moons ago, in 2003). It was rebuffed when you *took it out of context*. And yet, I still hold no ill-will towards you personally.

This is not your personal website, your standing here is the same as mine, I see no reason why you should be allowed to use innuendo and out of context quotes to sling mud whenever you see fit.

HaHa ...There is no mud-slinging. I am using quotes from the guy who created this marker. It appears that when it doesnt fit your bill, its *innuendo*. I am sure if you could find a thread that backed up your case, you would have pointed it out already.

This thread was about sears. Might I once again point out that your loyal customer started this thread when he could have just e-mailed you in the first place for the answer.

I manage to sell a lot of parts, without ever having to drag your stuff down, why can you not do the same?

And I as well. Ive never seen the need to drag your stuff down. Many customers have asked me to bad-mouth your stuff. I refuse. All I ever do is point out the benefits of my stuff. And thats just business.

As previously stated, I was the first to offer and extend help to you many moons ago...I cant say I have ever received that same treatment from you. Ever.

I'm done here, I've said my piece.

Maybe over Christmas you will realize that you don't need to tear everyone else's product down, in order to sell your own. There are other ways to get the job done, which are much more civilized (and polite).

Damn bud... I feel bad that you think that. Ive never had to tear down everyone elses parts. In fact, I constantly attempt to work with every dealer I know(and can work with of course) to sell their products. Even if it means that I dont make a penny. Karma will re-pay me, someday.

One example, I refer my customers to KiluaeKid and his detents even though I also have a competing detent.

I hope that over X-Mas you can go back and re-read past *historical* posts of mine and yours. You will find that your perceptions are mis-guided.

I do my job by building the best parts I can at the best prices I can, and marketing them the best I know how. If thats uncivilized or impolite, then you have me pegged and I am guilty of being both.

Have a good holiday Rogue.

You too CoolHand. Happy holidays.