New ULT tuning technique-thoughts? Is this right?

[trains are bad]

Say I was to install my valve without the bolt spring, fire, and hold the trigger (you could slow the bolt with a straightshot to prevent abuse to the body).

Now the bolt is forward, the air chamber is open but not dumping air because of the on/off.

Now say you let go of the trigger. The sear will not reset because it is hitting the bolt. It still shouldn't dump air right? The on/off shouldn't open untill the bolt is back far enough for the hook to catch the bolt and the sear to pivot, opening the on/off. There is no point to it opening before it does.

Now if you have too many shims in the ULT then it WILL dump air, because the effective length of the on/off pin is too short to seal.

So you should be able to slowly move the bolt back into the open position without it leaking any air until it resets and the chamber recharges. The max number of shims that allows this is the ideal amount.

Right?

[trains are bad]

Anybody?

Does nobody know if the on/off is supposed to open if you let go of the trigger while the bolt is still foreward? This may be a cause of chuffing.

[CaliMagFan]

if there is not bolt in the tube you should always be venting when you're not on the trigger.. the thing that keeps the air in the chamber is the bolt.... when you have your finger on the trigger you can suspect that the bolt has aready cyclced... and so if you cycle it out of the system, there is nothing to hold the pressure taht had just accumulated in the chamber upon that shot cycle.....

something like taht... i dont know what it might have to do with chhuffing,,, i htink cuffing is from clogged air passaged, sluggish moving parts, and unpracticed trigger fingers.... btw... its good to be back in america

-kyro

[trains are bad]

I don't think you even read what I wrote. First of all, I never said to remove the bolt. The point was to see if the on/off is capable of opening when the bolt is anywhere but reset in the open position. I don't think it should be able to.

[CaliMagFan]

i dont know if you have read many of my tech posts or replies... but i dont think your response matches the feelings of many others.....
you-- "I don't think you even read what I wrote"


you--"Say I was to install my valve without the bolt spring, "

- ok so you're plannning on interfering with the normal MO of the bolt system

you---"Now the bolt is forward, the air chamber is open but not dumping air because of the on/off. "

- ok, thats clear, cause all that you have done is to fire the marker normally... the on/off is of course a sepparate system than that of the bolt, so the bolt has to bearing on what the on/off can do directly (its the sear and the sear rod that gover the on/offs movement- but i think that obvious)

you--"Now say you let go of the trigger. The sear will not reset because it is hitting the bolt. It still shouldn't dump air right? The on/off shouldn't open untill the bolt is back far enough for the hook to catch the bolt and the sear to pivot, opening the on/off. There is no point to it opening before it does."

-this assumes that you will keep the bolt within its normal path of opperation.... i dont know for dogmatic assurance about this... but i think the bolt could, without the presence of the bolt spring, move far enough forward so that the leading edge "ramp" part of the sear will not reach the flared tail of the bolt... that would mean that the on/off could push down on the end of the sear and the nose of the sear could swing all the way up into the body with no bolt to stop it... at that point, the on/off is open and there is not a bolt to stop the air in the chamber... thus:

ME-- "if there is not bolt in the tube you should always be venting when you're not on the trigger.. the thing that keeps the air in the chamber is the bolt.... when you have your finger on the trigger you can suspect that the bolt has aready cyclced... and so if you cycle it out of the system, there is nothing to hold the pressure taht had just accumulated in the chamber upon that shot cycle....."

that quote in my post kinda urges new information against the statement that you made in you reply...

you--"The point was to see if the on/off is capable of opening when the bolt is anywhere but reset in the open position. I don't think it should be able to."

so what i read from you is that you suspect that small leaks cause by the ULT's abbility to change the length of the on/off pin will eventually allow the chamber to reach a pressure that is sufficient to fire the bolt again, but only in a chuff fashion.. the reason for the chuff is that there is not the normal air pressure loading behind the bolt and it cannot fire do to the resistance of the bolt spring....

here is the problem with what i gather you are saying.... the X valave recharges at ~26 CPS... and thats without shootdown... we've hear them do more than 30 with sufficient pressure to the valve..... so once you let go of the leaking trigger the chamber will still fill up in less that 1/20 if a second... and you'd be hard pressed to get the trigger moving that fast with your fingers.

what i think that you're missing is that even when the on/off is leaking a little you still must release the trigger to get the marker to fire, even just a chuff.....

the problem that you are really addressing the the one taht was more prevalent on the classic valve design... if you will, the "lawn sprinkler" issue....

that problem whas the result of a leaky on/off assembly, and when coupled with the fact that the bolt was not locked up you would be able to have the bolt repeat an aborted cycle ad nauseum...


clear as mud, right?

no really... i think its an interesting issue that you are addressing... but i dont think taht the effect taht you are observing or hypothesissing is caused by what you expect it to be cause by....

in actuality the shortening of the on/off pin will make the marker, in both RT and classic valves, go full auto.... and shortening the on/offs actual length is the effect of adding more shims to the ULT....

i didnt read this out of the paintball bible... so if you dont agree.. lets hear it.... maybe i'll do some tests to check it out....

[bigredbullseye]

I have to agree with mag fan, In the case of the RT mag, the bolt returning to the sear and clicking in place does not reset the on/off. If it did there would be absolutely no reactivity in the trigger after firing. If the bolt spring is not in the marker, you loose the reverse force needed to return the bolt to the start cycle posititon. With this, when the on/off returns to its natural(start cycle) position, and the bolt is held open there is no way for the dump chamber to pressurize before the next cycle. Like it has been said to me before, the bolt acts like a cork in the bottle and as the bolt cycles forward, the bottle opens and the pressure released.


I hope I kinda made sense with that. It makes my brain hurt looking at what i just wrote

[athomas]

trains are bad: I'm not sure if the sear tip would reset behind a forward bolt without the bolt spring or not. Other than that, what you said is correct. The ULT in a mag should be able to be tuned quite effectively using your method. I may even try it when I have a moment.

[trains are bad]

I still don't think I some people are clear on what I was trying to say, that's all.

the bolt has to bearing on what the on/off can do directly (its the sear and the sear rod that gover the on/offs movement- but i think that obvious)

Wrong.The bolt should hold the on/off shut, through the sear, until it returns to the open position---I think. It's possible the marker would operate fine if the on/off could open with the bolt foreward, as long as you hold the trigger back until the bolt resets.

Runnig the marker without a bolt spring is the only way to see if it does. Theoretically the on off should not be able to open until the bolt returns all the way open, plugging the power tube, and letting the sear pivot upwards.


If I'm right the optimum number of ULT shims would be the maximum amount that you can put in, but still not have any leakage until the bolt returns fully open position.

f the bolt spring is not in the marker, you loose the reverse force needed to return the bolt to the start cycle posititon.

This is true, but it is also irrelevant. I mean really.

[CaliMagFan]

i think we have a failure to communicate.... why dont you just go and tune your marker as you please... maybe avoid asking for help next time if you dont want to hear it from jumpstreet..

just a thought

whats the worst that could happen?... you bang the crap out of a 140 dollar aluminum tube and have to buy a new one?

[stop whining buy a mag]

More flaming on AO.

[Doobie]

More flaming on AO.

Actually, I think CaliMag really tried to help him.

I say...Try it and tell us what happens.

[trains are bad]

whats the worst that could happen?... you bang the crap out of a 140 dollar aluminum tube and have to buy a new one?

All you have to do is air the marker up with the bolt a bit foreward to see if it's gonna leak. You can hold a squeegie in front of the bolt too, it's a LX bolt so it's not going to have a ton of force behind it that you can't stop with a stick.

why dont you just go and tune your marker as you please... maybe avoid asking for help next time i

dude, just chill TF out. I'm not sure if the timing of the automag is designed the way I think it is, I just thought someone might know. I will try it for myself when I get a chance but right now I have more irons in the fire like trying to get my warp running again. It's no big deal, really. No need to get worked up. I swear kids these days can't even discuss paintball markers without getting offended.

[CaliMagFan]

this is going to be my last post on this thread for the reason it does us no good... but in respose to this statement by trains:

trains --"I don't think you even read what I wrote. "

it doesnt look that i was the one in need of "chilling".
I tried to help and you didnt seem to want to hear it... i tried to clear up the confusion and still my words are rejected.. the fact that i am here now making a mends in a matter that i didnt do anything wrong in is odd enough... but i dont think that i will offer you any more tech help in the future.

-kyro

[trains are bad]

uh, sorry. I guess.

You responded with this

if there is not bolt in the tube you should always be venting when you're not on the trigger.. the thing that keeps the air in the chamber is the bolt.... when you have your finger on the trigger you can suspect that the bolt has aready cyclced... and so if you cycle it out of the system, there is nothing to hold the pressure taht had just accumulated in the chamber upon that shot cycle.....
something like taht... i dont know what it might have to do with chhuffing,,, i htink cuffing i

Which, possibly because it's barely coherent, didn't seem to address the situation I was discussing. I don't think you understood what I was getting at with the thread, and I'm sorry if I offended you by saying so. To be honest, I think you are being way too sensitive.

[trains are bad]

I got around to trying it. I have the maximum number of shims that will fit in my ult and still fit the valve in the body, because that's where I started out, and shims aren't too critical on an electro mag. It might runaway on a mech, I have no idea I have never shot this setup in a mechanical marker. It would be easier to test with a mech though.

Anyway I installed the valve without the spring, and tripped the sear and slid the bolt to the foreward position, then aired it up. The sear was free to pivot. No leaks. I pushed the bolt all the way back to the open position and it the sear clicked in place, under pressure from the on/off. Then I stuck my finger in the breech to block the eyes so that it would fire, like I always do, but since there was no bolt spring and I forgot, it hurt like a (*%&!

So it appears that it is a non-issue. Even with the max number of shims in the ult, the on/off cannot open until the bolt is fully retracted. Mystery solved.