cocker valve tool? + front end or valve?

**CRiZO** · 01-21-2002, 03:25 PM

Sorry this isn't an answer, but this is an automag tech forum... I dunno how much cocker help you can squeeze out here... try the cocker forums at pbnation.com

**Failure** · 01-21-2002, 07:33 PM

I don't think you need a special tool on cockers. Angels require a special tool though to get to the hammer and LPR. Maybe the person got the 2 guns confused. Don't angel inlines have angel threads on them? I don't think angel inlines are interchangeable with other guns without the vertical asa. Get a bomb 3-way for your gun. A shocktech lightning bolt. Either a tornado valve or madman rocket valve. I think that low pressure in cockers is achieved with lighter springs? I'm still learning them so I may be wrong. Hope this helps at least a little.

Go here for lots of help with your cocker:

http://www.paintballguru.com/mods/efficiency.htm

**headcase** · 01-21-2002, 08:10 PM

This is the tool you need to replace the cocker valve.

The stock equipment on STO, was not very suprisingly WGP parts, that have been polished to improve performance. These parts are pretty good, much better than the stock parts of the same year not quite as good as the STO stuff now. If you are on a budget the only thing I would change with the pnuematics is the reg. I would replace it with a rock or micro-rock, but those are my choices.

As for as valves go.......the tornado is nice but at 70$ it isn't the most cost effective, and while I've heard good things about the rocket, but it's unique design puts me off. I would go with either the RAT 3:16 or Macdev
RED valve, both would be good choices at around 30-40$.

Good Luck

**Drizit** · 01-22-2002, 09:39 AM

first off stay away form shoctech cocker parts, except for the bolt, just as soon as you get it take the screw out of the back and locktite it in place (they have been known to come out and then your pin follows shortly after, i speek form experience) the bomb is nice if you get one that works (best of luck to you on that one, shocktech's QC is far from the best out there.) you would be better off with the DYE 3 way. and even though palmer makes an ok reg you would be better off with a kapp reg. it's the new STO, with a twister kit on it, but shorter. as to the ram, stick with STO perhaps a newer one if you want but you don't get much better then STO rams. i don't know much about valves but i do know you need a tool to get it in and out. now as to low pressure cockers the only thing you can make low pressure is the newmatics, the air that hits the ball will alwase be the same. and if you want a gun that won't chop then yes you can do it with low pressure newmatics however you won't be able to get and sort of decent rate of fire out if it because the newmatics will be sluggish, you can get the same efect of not chopping if you fire that slow anyway. if you want a decent rate of fire then you will have to crank up the pressure. we ran my friends '99 sto and about 600psi in the nematics, we didn't relise that for about 6 or 8 months but hey he got it going at about 14bps without a hinge fame (yes there is somthing worng with his fingers, we think it's the 10 years of heavy metal gitar) and we never had access to a bps chrone after we put on the eclips hinge but it was faster. when you try to do that on a free flow the the thing just won't cycle that fast, unless you crank the numatics pressure, then you can't up your finger in it anymore. we did put a carrot in the breach of his sto once and it cut the thing right in half. but hey that's what it took.

boy i hope that ramble makes some sence, since i can't be bothered to reread it and find out.

**headcase** · 01-22-2002, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Drizit

Do you know much about 'cockers? Alot of what you said here doesn't make a lot of sense.

first off stay away form shoctech cocker parts, except for the bolt, just as soon as you get it take the screw out of the back and locktite it in place (they have been known to come out and then your pin follows shortly after, i speek form experience) the bomb is nice if you get one that works (best of luck to you on that one, shocktech's QC is far from the best out there.) you would be better off with the DYE 3 way.

Here you are right shocktech's QC does leave something to be desired, but most of the problems are with the bombs and pieces that have been nickle or chrome plated. I have never heard of a problems with the rest of the stuff. They have been the #1 seller of aftermarket upgrades for cockers for a long time. Even thought I don't like most of their stuff, saying to stay away from it is kinda harsh. As far as the DYE x-way, it's a bomb replica, I've even heard it is made by shocktech for DYE(but don't hold me to that). I stick with what I said before about leaving the stock STO part on there, it functions fine, and you can't beat the price.

and even though palmer makes an ok reg you would be better off with a kapp reg. it's the new STO, with a twister kit on it, but shorter.

OK regs? The rock has been the #1 replacement pnuematics reg for cockers for 10 years or so. KAPP's stuff usually looks nice, but it doesn't really perform. If you don't want a rock, get a Sonic.

as to the ram, stick with STO perhaps a newer one if you want but you don't get much better then STO rams.

I agree here, unless you are going for the exreme high end of the preformance envelope, the STO ram is a very good piece.

i don't know much about valves but i do know you need a tool to get it in and out.

At least you addmit you don't know a lot about valves, and you are right about a special tool.

now as to low pressure cockers the only thing you can make low pressure is the newmatics, the air that hits the ball will alwase be the same.

Wrong, you can make the pnues cock at a low pressure and the marker fire at a low pressure. Two different systems with a lot of different ways to be set up. A stock cocker runs about 250-300 operating pressure, and 60-75 psi cocking pressure. With the correct components and set up sub 200 operating, and 35-50psi cocking isn't hard to accomplish.

and if you want a gun that won't chop then yes you can do it with low pressure newmatics however you won't be able to get and sort of decent rate of fire out if it because the newmatics will be sluggish, you can get the same efect of not chopping if you fire that slow anyway. if you want a decent rate of fire then you will have to crank up the pressure.

Kinda true, but not really. Yeah, if all you do is turn down the pneu reg pressure the rate of fire will go down. But set up with the correct components you can lower the cocking pressure and suffer no effects to ROF.

we ran my friends '99 sto and about 600psi in the nematics, we didn't relise that for about 6 or 8 months but hey he got it going at about 14bps without a hinge fame (yes there is somthing worng with his fingers, we think it's the 10 years of heavy metal gitar) and we never had access to a bps chrone after we put on the eclips hinge but it was faster. when you try to do that on a free flow the the thing just won't cycle that fast, unless you crank the numatics pressure, then you can't up your finger in it anymore. we did put a carrot in the breach of his sto once and it cut the thing right in half. but hey that's what it took.

Interesting---------how did you measure the pressure that the pneus where operating at? What where you using for a pneu reg? 600 psi isn't even possible in the pneus in a normal setup for 2 reasons 1) the pneumatic regs will not output more than 120psi or so, and 2) the airhoses that connect the front block components will blow out at that kinda pressure. The fact that you claimed that you didn't know that you where running 600psi threw the pneus makes it even less likely because you would need some crazy special set up to make it work. The whole thing about 14bps on a cocker I'm not really going to comment on, because your friend might have fast fingers(but I tend to doubt that fast), but there is no way he could SHOOT that fast, the cocker valve system can't keep the air supply up without some really nasty shoot down. If you look at all the elecro frames out right now, most cap at around 10-11 BPS because any faster just won't work well.

**Drizit** · 01-23-2002, 11:21 AM

i post only form experience, i'm not a cocker tech. to be honist i wan't there when he messured the neumatics pressure, however he is someone i usualy take at his word. and clips were required to keep his hoses on the gun.

i say stay away form shocktech because every shocktech part i have ever had any experience with failed in one way or another, they made a bushmaster bolt and the qc was so bad that a good number of them wouldn't even fit into the back of the gun, when we called to ask if they could replace it, they told us we were on our own. to my knolage the bomb is made somewhat differently form most threeways, the dye all they did was move the holes closer together, also every review i have seen of the dye can't find anything bad to say about it. however i have never held one in my had. and yes the sto is a good one, infact i would never knock any part of the sto front end.

yes the rock is a good reg, perhaps phrasing it as just "ok" was somwhat of a misswording. and now when i go looking for the info i had on the kapp reg, it seems to have dissapeared form the net,(don't know where it went or why.) so i will withdraw that statement.

i'd be interested to know what setup you would use to bring a cocker down to that kind of pressure without sacraficeing rate of fire. in my experience any time you bring down the pressure the nemactics won't cycle as fast. and as to max operating pressure of the neumatics being about 120psi please explain why one of the two cockers i have had extencive experience with won't cock below about 200psi in the tank, nomater how long you let the reg recharge?

next rate of fire and shoot down. with the right valve a cocker should be able to theoreticaly do around 15 to 20 bps before the shoot down get too bad, you do have to run a high pressure setup to do it though. and i'm not one to exagerate rate of fire. i saw the bps counter and that's what it said, he's one of those people that get guns handed to them just so every one can find out how fast their gun can realy go, i know i can't touch him for speed. at thouse speeds there was no apreciable shoot down, you could hear it a bit and it did show up on the chrony but it wasn't anything that affected paly to any degree. now when he put on the hinge and his rate of fire went up, he started complaining about shoot down. that was on an almost stock 99 sto, the vavle had been changed but i don't know to what. as i said, the closest thing i know any thing about to a cocker valve is a spyder, one day i'll pull apart my tippmann just to see. and the reason for the cap on the electro's may be because the stock valves and/or low pressure steups can't keep up.

**headcase** · 01-23-2002, 12:53 PM

First let me say that I'm sorry if I came across like an idiot, I didnt mean it that way. After rereading my post, I think it could be construded that way.

What you are saying about the shocktech stuff is your opinion and personal experence, I really can't dispute that, except to say everyone I know with cockers and shocktech parts have had pretty good luck with them. That being said, I don't use their stuff, I'll always use PPS or STO parts.

I know that the internal design of the bomb, is different that the other x-ways, but I thought I heard that the DYE was the same internally and that shocktech was making them for DYE, again I've never seen a DYE in person so I really don't know. But if shocktech isn't making them I would go back to the STO or PPS just because DYE tends to charge alot for there name. If it isn't a bomb or PPS copy than it is just a polished stock type anyway.

i'd be interested to know what setup you would use to bring a cocker down to that kind of pressure without sacraficeing rate of fire. in my experience any time you bring down the pressure the nemactics won't cycle as fast. and as to max operating pressure of the neumatics being about 120psi please explain why one of the two cockers i have had extencive experience with won't cock below about 200psi in the tank, nomater how long you let the reg recharge?

To get very low cocking pressure you need to have everything working together and tuned correctly. The current, after Professional PB released the Freeflow, trend is a heavy hammer with a light hammer spring. From what I gather this heavy/light combo allows for lower cocking pressure, while still having enough force to completly open the valve.

From what I understand, with this set up the ram has to do less work, which allows the pneu reg to be turned down while keeping the same cycle speed. The Freeflow's are offered from Professional with the Racegrip, and the ROF set to 10-11 BPS, and they don't have any problems. I think I read they turn the cocking pressure up to 50 instead of 35, but that is still much lower than the pressures you are talking about.

As far as the problems you've had with cockers not recocking, I don't know what to tell you. But I know that most will cycle with less than that much pressure in the tank. The Splat Attack Revenge V2, while technically not a cocker, uses all AKA internals, has an operating pressure of around 180psi and the pnues are regulated, so they are running below that. Conventional regulator knowledge says you need around 100-200 psi difference between regs to avoid starving the second reg(the pneu in this case) so it has to be running under 100, I would guess under 80. Most of the high end cockers run about 180-300 operating pressure, depending on the internals, and i would bet they all have similar results, except the freeflow which is setup to run lower.

**Failure** · 01-23-2002, 04:05 PM

Well, from what I've been reading, the shocktech angel bolts have been messing up the hammers inside the angels and actually the pin has fallen out of a few of them. But there are a few cases of poor worksmanship in every product so that is acceptable.

**Drizit** · 01-24-2002, 08:34 AM

headcase i would never have accused you of being an idot, for one thing you sound to informed and your arguments are presented in an intelegent manner. tust me if i thought less of you i would have just said it. perhaps it's the shocktech stuff that makes it into canada. to be fair to them i have seen working bombs, and when they do work they're a good three way. the dye seems to actualy be somthing new, sort of. all they did was take the stock design and move the holes closer together, thus producing a shorter pull. though dye is usualy a bit over priced you have to give them props for makeing decent products, most of the time. i don't know about the new free flows, but the one i used (i think it was a '00) was badly castrated when it came to cocking speed. i'll have to do some more looking into that setup you talked about. have you ever used or fired a gun setup that way? if it realy works i know 2 cocker nuts who would be interested.

one final note to beat up shocktech with. there is some part they make for the matrix, i think it's the bolt, if you put it in your warranty is void. i don't know of any other aftermarket matrix part that does this to you.

**PBpunk** · 01-24-2002, 04:27 PM

thanks. i think i am going to get a valve first probly a rocket. then i can save up for makin all my pneus all fancy. but first i really need a barrel. hehe. anyone have one they want to donate?

**covadsucks** · 01-24-2002, 04:49 PM

I would highly recommend a Palmer Stabilizer for your bottom reg, and a Palmer Rock, or micro rock, both are fully adjustable and very consistent. I've owned several cockers and while the heavy hammer and light springs work, you'll find the lower the pressure the more air you need. It's nothing more than a trade off of less shots per tank and lower operating pressure -or higher shots, by maybe 50 shots...at 300-400 psi.

As for the front pnuematics, the STO 3way are very nice. I would recommend the Bomb, the Smart Parts Angry 3way (it's made by Belsales...Evolution Cockers) or the STO. The rest out there are not going to impact your performance any more than before.

**headcase** · 01-25-2002, 01:13 PM

Drizit -- there is one freeflow at the local field, and I've not see it have any problems keeping up with rapid fire. I have another friend that is building a cocker from the ground up using the freeflow hammer and springs, so I'll be able to see that one too. I also plan on doing another cocker build up soon so I've been looking into the parts I want to use, but I don't think that project is going to be done anytime soon.

covadsucks -- Going LP just to say you have LP is the thing lots of people go for. A properly set up LP cocker will be very effient, but it takes tuning to get it to work right. As an example AKA reports 2000+ shots from a 68/45 or 20oz CO2 using their products. I can varify, having built one cocker around their internals and playing with others, those claims.

LP should be a byproduct of good efficency, LP SHOULDN'T be the goal.

cocker valve tool? + front end or valve?

cocker valve tool? + front end or valve?

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