Calssic on/off questions..

[Christian Nelson]

Sorry if this is something that has been answered many times.

I have done some searching, and can't seem to find exactly the whole of the information I am looking for.

I have seen in some posting s about setting up pneumags refrences to exchanging classic valve on/off with a n RT on/off. Also about drilling the top of the on/off.

Question 1: When people refer to exchanging the on/off with an on/off from an RT, do they mean the entire on/off assembly, or just the pin?

Question 2: Drilling the top of the on/off, how big of a hole do you drill in it?

This is for a classic valve mag by the way.

If there is a thread (which I couldn't find that exactly dealt with these issues, but hey, my search foo may need work) about this I would appreciate a link to it as well.

Another question that has been bugging me,

People say that you cannot use CO2 in an RT or X-valve because of the way it sends unregulated pressure into the dump chamber, and how it doesn't have an overpressure poppet like the classic did.

What is to stop one from putting a stabalizer inline before the AIR valve, thus not allowing any thing above a certain pressure in, and in addition, the stab has over pressure relief, and would vent it, reducing the hot shots?

The only way I could think of this not working is if somehow, the AIR valve sealed upstream after it took in the gas, does it do this?

If so, couldn 't one still gut the reg on the AIR valve, and run the stab as it's reg, thus eliminating the hot shots all together?

Thanks,

Christian

[Dayspring]

1) The entire assembly.

2) Why are you drilling it? You shouldn't modify it at all.

3) The RT valve recharges too quickly. CO2 doesn't have time to phase change from liquid to gas. Putting another reg in the mix will induce recharge problems. If you want an Xvalve, get HPA. No questions about it.

Sorry if this is something that has been answered many times.

I have done some searching, and can't seem to find exactly the whole of the information I am looking for.

I have seen in some posting s about setting up pneumags refrences to exchanging classic valve on/off with a n RT on/off. Also about drilling the top of the on/off.

Question 1: When people refer to exchanging the on/off with an on/off from an RT, do they mean the entire on/off assembly, or just the pin?

Question 2: Drilling the top of the on/off, how big of a hole do you drill in it?

This is for a classic valve mag by the way.

If there is a thread (which I couldn't find that exactly dealt with these issues, but hey, my search foo may need work) about this I would appreciate a link to it as well.

Another question that has been bugging me,

People say that you cannot use CO2 in an RT or X-valve because of the way it sends unregulated pressure into the dump chamber, and how it doesn't have an overpressure poppet like the classic did.

What is to stop one from putting a stabalizer inline before the AIR valve, thus not allowing any thing above a certain pressure in, and in addition, the stab has over pressure relief, and would vent it, reducing the hot shots?

The only way I could think of this not working is if somehow, the AIR valve sealed upstream after it took in the gas, does it do this?

If so, couldn 't one still gut the reg on the AIR valve, and run the stab as it's reg, thus eliminating the hot shots all together?

Thanks,

Christian

[MikeRosenthal]

The only way I could think of this not working is if somehow, the AIR valve sealed upstream after it took in the gas, does it do this?

Yes, the AIR Valve is a regulator. Pretty much all regulators(that i know of) act as a check valve in the reverse diretion of air flow. Meaning no, they can't vent backwards.

-MR

[Christian Nelson]

Yes, the AIR Valve is a regulator. Pretty much all regulators(that i know of) act as a check valve in the reverse diretion of air flow. Meaning no, they can't vent backwards.

-MR

I was under the impression that the reason the stab had such a good rep for use with CO2 was because of the fact that it vented if it exceeded the pressure it was set at, so you never had hot shots. That, combined with orings that could handle the colder temps and liquid made it very good at regulating CO2.

Now, if one were to gut the AIR reg, wouldn't that keep the dump chamber from getting liquid in it, and thus keep the hot shots from occuring?

Not planning on getting an xvalve, CO2 is much, MUCH easier to deal with for me. I ws just tinking about this since I have heard it asked so often.

Why would I drill the on/off top?

Indeed, this is kinda what I was asking, I don't know why, or how deep or how wide give you best results, or if any at all..

I just saw it in a picture of what I figured were guys who knew much more than I about it, and they didn't explain it in detail.

I was hoping to see what the particulars were in this and whether I thought it would be worth my while if I were to try to do a pneumatic mag.

Here is where I got the idea from, halfway down the page, there is a picture with them drilling the top of the on/off, does this work?

http://www.beog.org/redeye/pneumag.php

So, the entire on/off from an RT can fit in the classic valve, and does indeed improve recharge rate?

Interesting..

I am going to attempt the pneumatic mag, and then I might do a few other of my guns. I like the pneumatic idea much better, no batteries!

Thank you guys for info, so much!

Christian

[MikeRosenthal]

I was under the impression that the reason the stab had such a good rep for use with CO2 was because of the fact that it vented if it exceeded the pressure it was set at, so you never had hot shots. That, combined with orings that could handle the colder temps and liquid made it very good at regulating CO2.

Now, if one were to gut the AIR reg, wouldn't that keep the dump chamber from getting liquid in it, and thus keep the hot shots from occuring?

Not planning on getting an xvalve, CO2 is much, MUCH easier to deal with for me. I ws just tinking about this since I have heard it asked so often.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Both Palmer's Stabalizer and the classic valve have an over-pressure relief valve that will vent if pressure spikes to unsafe levels (which liquid will cause...)

As to your other question the classic valve should be good to about ~10-13 bps without shootdown. I wouldn't recommend modifying the on/off.

-MR

[Christian Nelson]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Both Palmer's Stabalizer and the classic valve have an over-pressure relief valve that will vent if pressure spikes to unsafe levels (which liquid will cause...)

So, if someone REALLY wanted to use CO2 on an xvalve, the way to do it would be to gut the AIR reg, and use a stab inline then, right?

As to your other question the classic valve should be good to about ~10-13 bps without shootdown. I wouldn't recommend modifying the on/off.

-MR

Now, just to be clear about this. You mean 10-13 bps without shoot down on a classic valve with classic on/off, not with the RT on/off, or are you saying put the RT one on, but don't modify it.

Why do people put the RT on/off on a classic valve? In my thinking, it looks like the bottle neck is the pin, and the width of the passage between the reg and the dump chamber, if that isn't made any bigger, the rest of it won't make any difference. Unless you raise the pressure, like in the RT and Xvalve, the diameter of the hole the on/off pin goes into limits the amount of gas that can transfer from the reg to the dump chamber, right?

Looking at the passage between the reg and the on/off, I see no easy way of widening the passage easily. I think it would take very careful machining, and you'd only get a few thousandths of an inch without having to redesign the whole Valve. Has anyone done this, machine that hole, and use wider on/off pin? Wouldn't that also make it a bit harder to pull the trigger?

I've got a couple of mags, and I finnally figured out what was causing shoot down in one of them, it was the reg pin spring, it wasn't going completely down into the recess it was supposed to, and thus it was putting too much pressure on the reg seat, not letting enout pressure into the valve. I kept looking into the on/off assembly because that was what people kept directing me to.

I had two other mags, and neither of them had this trouble, so I took them all apart and looked carefully at the differences between them. I found the one that had shootdown, had the spring bent in a way it wouldn't go all the way down, so it wouldn't let the reg pin open up to let new air in very easily. This was what caused my shoot down.

I see alot of mods and work done to try to combat shootdown, and they all seem to deal with the on/off. Just in looking at it, you can't really get more to flow fromt he reg to the dump chamber by doing anything to the on/off assembly, other than maybe making the pin shorter so it opens wider, but then you may get other problems. I wonder how often the problems are elsewhere in the gun when people are trying to combat shootdown.

Again, thanks, for the info.

I may be hitting folks up in the future about pneumatic mag stuff. I have found alot of info in this place already, so I will try not to ask redundant questions. I will probably ask for a clarification or two just so I am clear about what I am doing, but I will try not to be too much of a pester'er.

Oh, and I will post pic if y'all are interested in my progress.

[Coralis]

If you want to put a RT on/off in a classic valve all you need to do it drop in the new assembly. It wont increase the recharge rate of the valve , but it will make the trigger lighter . Also because the on/off pin has a smaller diameter at the top you will have to buy an extra parts kit or extra orings so that you can rebuild the valve periodically.

[Dayspring]

How does having a smaller diameter mean that you have to rebuild it more often?

[Christian Nelson]

If you want to put a RT on/off in a classic valve all you need to do it drop in the new assembly. It wont increase the recharge rate of the valve , but it will make the trigger lighter . Also because the on/off pin has a smaller diameter at the top you will have to buy an extra parts kit or extra orings so that you can rebuild the valve periodically.

Ah, so it lightens the trigger pull..

Hmm, what would the drilling of the top hope to accomplish, like in the pictures I linked above?

[Dayspring]

Honestly, I don't think it does a damned thing, as the air flows THROUGH the on/off. Yes, there is pressure pushing down on the on/off head, but once that seal on the oring is broken, it will flow. Opening the hole won't do anything b/c the diameter of the on/off pin head is staying the same. If you open the hole on top, you'd need a larger oring to seal against, negating the larger hole.

[Coralis]

How does having a smaller diameter mean that you have to rebuild it more often?

I assume this question was directed at me ... what i was saying because you have a RT on/off in your classic valve will need to have a rt parts kit or buy the oring separately for the on/off ( the very small one that you have to unscrew the on/off apart to replace , part number 778 small on/off oring ) because the automag parts kit doesnt have it .