Increasing Mag Efficiency

[Stealth Fighter]

I was wondering if you all think that increasing a mags efficiency is capable with the right upgrades, maybe making the mag a little closer to LP.

I think that RPG's ULE'd Bolt (when it comes out), a lighter spring, and increasing the flow to the bolt somehow could greatly increase the mags efficiency.

Any other thoughts?

[Dayspring]

remember- being LP doesn't make it any more efficient.

HP requires a short burst of air.
LP requires a longer burst of air.

280fps is 280fps. It requires either a short, strong burst of air or a long, gentle burst to get the required energy to hit that 280fps mark.

And FYI- internally, the mag is ~400psi. On ball pressure (what the ball sees) is 65psi. That's lower pressure than some of these other "LP" guns.

[Stealth Fighter]

got ya, but more energy is required to move the bolt forward in a mag correct, my thinking is if you eliminate some weight and put in a weaker spring you could probably sqeeze another hopper or 2 out of a tank if I did my math correctly.

[Dayspring]

The level 10 is already lighter than the previous incarnation- level 7.

To get the BEST efficiency out of a mag- use level 7 parts.

Next past that- use level 10 parts with the gold spring and the loosest carrier that won't leak.

[ThePixelGuru]

got ya, but more energy is required to move the bolt forward in a mag correct, my thinking is if you eliminate some weight and put in a weaker spring you could probably sqeeze another hopper or 2 out of a tank if I did my math correctly.

True, the bolt spring does take a fair amount of air pressure to overcome, but that same air is used to fire the ball once the bolt is forward enough. It's not wasted.

[Stealth Fighter]

The level 10 is already lighter than the previous incarnation- level 7.

To get the BEST efficiency out of a mag- use level 7 parts.

Next past that- use level 10 parts with the gold spring and the loosest carrier that won't leak.

I understand that, but RPG's bolt is going to be aluminum and weigh several ounces less than the Level 10. I plan to increase air flow through the on/off assembly like shown below. My home is that I can possibly run at a lower psi that way.

What's done here is to open up the flow inside the on/off assembly. We will then use an RT pin in the classic valve. Better recharge, higher flow. Overall we'll need all the speed we can get. Nun Notes* Tom Kaye would NOT be happy. We took an AGD on/off assembly and pin. Now, the RT on/off works in a classic, but there are some short stroking and shootdown issues. Guess that's why they made the RT valve for this piecs. However, the RT on/off pin has better flow characteristics than a stock classis mag pin. Part of the reactivity in the RT on/off comes from the tight restriction around the RT pin, specifically at the end that goes first into the valve. So, we drilled it out. We opened it up to the same dimentions as the top of the Classic on/off pin, drilling to depth just above the o-ring about 1/2 way down inside the on/off body. Pretty simple - brass drills like butter. Be careful not to drill too deeply, or you'll ruin the on/off body.

[Asym]

The bolt and on/off are 2 different issues/arguments.

The level 10 bolt is much lighter than the stock level 7, but the LX bolt vents while its starting to move and if something is in the way it resets thus using more air. With level 7 all air is used to push the bolt foward and fire, so no extra air is used.

The modification of on/off tops has always been a big debate, but "almost" everyone now agrees its a huge waste of money and time. In order to increase airflow you need to get a bigger on/off pin. The smallest and most restrictive part of the on/off is that first o-ring at the top of the on/off that the pin seals. So to get better air flow you need to increase that point first. The problem is with a classic on/off your pull is already at almost 3 pounds, you put a larger pin and this makes it a bigger piston, bigger piston with the same pressure makes the pull even greater.

To run a mag at a lower PSI you need to increase the size of your dump chamber. This is the area after the on/off where regulated air is stored for the next shot. Look at LP spiders and angels, they add that piece called a volumizer. Since they are using a lower pressure they need more air at a lower pressure to get the same velocities. Smart Parts did this on some mags, it was called the black box. It was a small black piece that was installed on the side of the valve, you even had to have a body that was cut so this box could stick out there. No one noticed any huge improvement and you can't even find these anymore.

Lower pressure doesn't always mean better efficency just as Dayspring said. In fact because of how the on/off is designed running a lower pressure could starve the gun during high rates of fire. Moding your on/off won't make the gun low pressure, and even if it did speed the recharge how would you know? There are many users running classics and RT style valves fine at 17-20bps.

[Dayspring]

In talking with Tom, he's mentioned that to make the Mag more efficient, use a SMALLER dump chamber. However, this raises the operating pressure a bit and you won't shoot as deep into the tank. But you'll get more shots out of what you CAN shoot.

Has this been tested? Dunno. Normal valve bodies are laser welded so you can't unscrew the powertube.