Auxiliary Air Output: Possible?

[derfalpha]

If you're familiar with the Tippmann cyclone feed system, you'll know that it uses some air from the valve to cycle paint into the marker.



Is it possible in any way to get some air from the Automag in a similar fashion? Speaking from a custom machining & pneumatics point of view of course. If you had the ability to hack up an Automag and make your own bits. This isn't for the purpose of adding a Cyclone.

Thanks!!!

[rawbutter]

I guess you're not very familiar with the idea of a pneumag, because a pneumag requires the exact kind of modification that you're talking about. There's a myriad different ways you could redirect some of the air through an LPR and use it for something else.

Here's a picture thread to give you an idea.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=222337

On each pneumag, an LPR redirects (and reduces the psi of) some of the air and sends it through a small hose to the frame to operate a pneumatic trigger... but you could easily send the air elsewhere. What exactly are you thinking about?

[Spider-TW]

Like rawbutter says, the LPR is the best way to get air from a mag.

You could get a pulse (around 10 msec) by tapping a hole just ahead of the breech, but you would need to account for paint breakage filling the hole and some way to make the available volume useful (like a check valve). Every where else on a mag might as well come from an lpr.

Doesn't the cyclone feed get gas during most of the firing cycle (blow forward, back and recock)?

[derfalpha]

Thanks for the links. A few questions:

- Is an automag regulator LP or HP?
- Does the air supply from the tank split off into 2 directions? (the low pressure reg for the pneumatic trigger, and the regulator for the automag?)

[chafnerjr]

Thanks for the links. A few questions:

- Is an automag regulator LP or HP?
- Does the air supply from the tank split off into 2 directions? (the low pressure reg for the pneumatic trigger, and the regulator for the automag?)

An automag's reg is HP... 800 psi or higher... sometimes much higher

You can get the air out of the HPA tank in a few ways, but you will have to split it. Some people run the LPR right off the ASA... some people mount the LPR out in front of the grip with a LP line run in a channel milled out of the rail. Personally, I had cyberave68 mount mine inside the frame with a modified ASA... see cyberave's how to pneu link here

http://www.bigevilonline.com/showthread.php?t=7

[derfalpha]

Could you do without the LPR? I think Tippmanns dont use an LPR for the cyclone.

And when you say "people running the LPR straight off the ASA", where do they get the air for the main regulator from? The ASA too? (two lines feeding from ASA?)

[dreadpirate]

Could you do without the LPR? I think Tippmanns dont use an LPR for the cyclone.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I have an A-5 at home that I tinker with on occasion, and I'm pretty sure the reason is in the difference in the A-5 and 98 method of operation versus the automag.

Tippmann guns, and most other paintball guns operate using an open bolt blow-back system, where pulling the trigger releases a spring-loaded bolt, which is pushed forward by a bolt spring, uncovers the air valve, allowing air pressure to simultaneously propel the ball out of the barrel, even as it pushes the bolt back against the spring, until it clicks into place again. In the A-5, X-7, or 98 with a cyclone, this same blowback pressure is also used to cycle the cyclone feeder, and RT (if installed), which is why LP kits for these guns require larger fittings to be installed for the cyclone feeder. I won't hazard a guess at how much lower the blowback pressure is versus the gun's input pressure, but I'm sure it's quite a bit lower, as I can't see the thin plastic cylinder of the cyclone, or the tiny air line handling 850psi HPA, let alone the pressure surges that CO2 can cause.

Automags use a blow-forward system, in which pulling the trigger releases a bolt with full operating pressure behind it. The bolt travels forward, compressing a return spring, engaging the ball, pushing it into the barrel, at which point, the power tube exits the prefire chamber, allowing the air to travel through the bolt and propel the ball out of the barrel, while the return spring pushes the bolt back into place and allows the prefire chamber (the valve, as AGD calls it) to recharge to full operating pressure. There are no systems in an automag which operate off blow-back pressure. Even the RT is pushed back into place by the full operating pressure in the valve/prefire chamber, which is why the on/off pin is so small.

I would think tapping 'blowback' pressure on an automag would require drilling a tap point at some location forward of the feeder connection, but that could cause some real problems with a 'mag, since they are limited by the air volume available in the prefire chamber. A blow-back gun has airflow available for all the blow-back powered components, until the bolt has travelled back far enough to cover the valve again. In a 'mag, the valve/prefire chamber is designed to contain the volume needed to launch a single paintball, and no more, which is why they are so small, and recharge so much faster than any other marker out there.

[derfalpha]

So, wait a second... An ASA has 2 output holes? So one output hole is connected to the trigger's LPR and the other to the Automag's HPR?

[luke]

So, wait a second... An ASA has 2 output holes? So one output hole is connected to the trigger's LPR and the other to the Automag's HPR?

Sometimes they have 3.

http://www.lukescustoms.com/page0027.htm

[dreadpirate]

So, wait a second... An ASA has 2 output holes? So one output hole is connected to the trigger's LPR and the other to the Automag's HPR?

Not normally, no, but now that I look, I notice that my bottomline does. One hole is used by my pressure gauge, the other for the macroline fitting. It would certainly be possible to remove my pressure gauge, and replace it with a second macroline fitting. Then one side could power the gun, and the other side could provide pressure to a LPR, but what would it supply air to? The automag already uses the HPA for the valve, which in turn pressurizes the trigger. It is all one sytem, with the same air supply. The automag's R/T is not the same animal as the tippmann's Response Trigger.

If you are wondering if a blow-back feeder like the cyclone could be run using a LPR, the answer would be no, not without some sort of mechanism connected to your trigger to open and shut the LP supply to the cyclone each time you pull the trigger. And then, if you chuffed, the feeder would doublefeed, and start breaking paint in the feeder. Besides, a stock cyclone can only feed about 15 bps, and if you're this serious about modifying your gun, it probably won't be long before you have it rapid firing at rates that pretty much only a warp feed, or Q-loader can keep up with.

[derfalpha]

How much stroke does the Pneumag actuator have?

Also, you know the force that the actuator pushes onto the sear ... do you know in relative terms if that force is just:

a) enough to do its job
b) very excessive, e.g. could activate 10 sears.
c) somewhere in between

Also, is it possible to increase the force of the actuator? E.g. making it 5 times more powerful?

[derfalpha]

How much stroke does the Pneumag actuator have?

Also, you know the force that the actuator pushes onto the sear ... do you know in relative terms if that force is just:

a) enough to do its job
b) very excessive, e.g. could activate 10 sears.
c) somewhere in between

Also, is it possible to increase the force of the actuator? E.g. making it 5 times more powerful?

Anyone have answers? ^

[temps]

How much stroke does the Pneumag actuator have?

Also, you know the force that the actuator pushes onto the sear ... do you know in relative terms if that force is just:

a) enough to do its job
b) very excessive, e.g. could activate 10 sears.
c) somewhere in between

Also, is it possible to increase the force of the actuator? E.g. making it 5 times more powerful?

For a classic valve with classic on/off you need if I remember correctly 90-100 psi (this changes depending on the setup. If you have a lvl 10, RT valve, ULT on/off ext).

The fabco MSV-1 is rated at a max input pressure of 150 psi.

So in other words, just enough to do its job with some room to play with.

[Spider-TW]

The stroke on an MPA-3 is about 1/4", iirc. It's easily forgotten because it is hard mount it far enough away from the sear to care.

The bore is .375 in. The bore area is 0.11 sq. in. multiply the bore area times your lpr setting of 20 to 100 psi and you have 2.2 to 11 lbs. The RT on/off is supposed to run about a 4 lb sear force, but for consistency (especially with teflon on/off top o-rings) I usually end up around 70 psi (or what should be 7.7 lbs). A ULT only needs about a pound, but I couldn't get my tickler to flow fast enough around 20 psi. Turning up the pressure kind of defeated the purpose of the ULT.

The classic on/off should require about 8 lbs on the sear.

More force just means more pressure or more bore area (or both).