Starting an Anodizing buisness, need advice!

[CoolHand]

Man, you guys got no idea how involved anodizing is.

If you had any incling of the time it takes, you would be shocked to see anyone do a full marker for $60 (especially if they do the surface prep).

With anodizing, surface prep is everything. If it sucks when it goes in the tank, it will look worse when it comes out. The trip through the acid bath is the easy part. Its the surface prep that costs the money.

$30 - $40 to just dunk the parts in their tank, no prep needed is not too bad, but to ask a man to finish them for that price is pretty much an insult.

Believe me, I speak from experience here - There will be at least 5-8 hrs of polish time needed (for a whole marker) to get a gloss finish, even if the marker was gloss before it was stripped. That's a whole day of work for one guy. At $40, he's not even making minimum wage, much less paying for his equipment/overhead.

So back up off the guy for a while.

I think the prices he posted were fair.

Also, for the guy who started this thread - We have tried both LCD and standard Current Density, and have found good results with both. The LCD takes about twice to three times as long though.

Also, if you've got the money, spring for one of Caswell's digital power supplies. Those things are the cat's @ss. We've got one, and it is much easier to use than the analog dial type.

Good luck, you're gonna need it.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

hehe, thanks coolhand. I probably will do a ton of samples before I actually start taking orders to make sure I don't mess up anyone's setup. I don't have enough cash to get a digital one, and not sure that I will even have a high enough number of orders to justify that. However, I am planning to get a CNC Lathe and mill my own gun bodies (lets just say it will rival the DM4, and look alot better, and take standard matrix bolt parts, but I've already said too much...). If I get that lathe, I will get the digital model. Does Caswell not sell the standard current ano kits? I did not see them on their website. Any other good priced places to buy stuff? How about some cheaper dye? The dye cost me about $300 alone.

Thanks for the advice so far guys! Keep it coming!

ps: CoolHand, do you anodize markers for people? Or do you only do the logic frames? If you anodize markers, I have 2 Matrices, one bead blasted and one polished one waiting for ano right now!

[NeoMoses]

Those prices do not seem high at all. Being a small-scale anodizer, I do understand what goes into this. I'll try to give you some advice to save you future headaches.

1. Anodizing is more temperamental than the worst woman you've ever met. Expect to spend LOTS of time learning your system, how it works, and all of its quirks. This should take you at least 1-2 weeks, or 15-20 batches.
2. Record everything you do in an anodizing log. This will become invaluable when you have problems (and you will, it's inevitable).
3. Don't expect to get a first class anodize out of a third class setup. You need to spend the money on a proper power supply, monitoring equipment, etc to make this work well consistently. Remember, if you're selling this as a service, you want it to work right the first time, every time.
4. Look into waste handling/disposal. This can really bite you if you neglect it. Trust me, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, chromic acid, sodium hydroxide, and other chemicals you'll be working with are very nasty. Respect them and dispose of them correctly. You don't want a $25,000 fine for improper waste disposal, do you?
5. Don't expect to get rich quick. It's not gonna happen until you prove your skill at anodizing; there are tons of anodizers available thanks to the internet. How are you different?

What do you know about anodizing? How about fading/splashes/sponges/decals, etc... If you've never done it before, you're in for a pretty steep learning curve in the next 6 months if you want to consider your services worthy of selling. There's not much good information on the 'net about anodizing. Those who do know aren't spreading their knowledge for free. Some places deliberately spread false information.

If you want a true gloss finish, buy a buffer and/or a vibratory tumbler. The bead blaster is needed for some matte finishes. How much do you know about metal prep/polishing?

Want to know some good websites to start from?

https://www.caswellplating

Yahoo groups - anodizing 101
Ron Newman's focuser anodizing website (don't remember the URL, try google, it'll be there)


What qualifies me to tell you this? I've done a fair share of anodizing.

Here's some pics of my mostly finished Spyder. This gun started off as a nasty green color, not very cool looking IMHO.

Originally, the entire gun was to be stripped and anodized with a blue to silver fade. Upon re-anodizing the grip frame, the cast alloy it was made out of turned a dark gray, so black was the only logical color choice for it. Since this messed up the entire color scheme for the gun, I decided to play around.

I tried to fade the flame drop forward from blue to black, to match the black of the grip frame and the blue of the elbow/air line. I think I succeeded fairly well. :) What was left wasn't exactly what I was going for in the beginning, but nonetheless I think it looks better. Enjoy!

First, an overall pic:




Blue to black fade on flame drop forward. The numbers indicate the colors I was trying to match (elbow and grip):



Another view:



Note: No, I will not anodize your paintball guns/accessories. You can not afford me; my time is more valuable than that.

Edit: Sorry if that came out a bit harshly. I'm just a busy guy and I usually don't have the time to anodize for other people. It really is time consuming to do well.

[bleachit]

very nice anno job on that imagine.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

thanks for the advice so far....

[NeoMoses]

Originally posted by bleachit
very nice anno job on that imagine.

Thanks! I know, I put way too much time into a cheap Spyder, but it's definately 'one of a kind' now.

[NeoMoses]

Ok, here's my second large post. I wanted to post my warnings first, now I'll post my recommendations. If I did it at the same time, the post would have been huge. My replies will be inline, in dark blue.

Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG
Here is a final list of the supplies I am buying. I decided not to do powdercoating.

Benchtop Sandblaster
Aluminum and copper alloy polishing kit Not a bad price, and definately necessary for a good gloss finish.
25 Amp rectifier Don't buy this. You want a Constant Current power supply (CC) for anodizing with at least 0-18 volts available. A 0-30V, 0-20Amp CC/CV supply is what I use, and if you plan on ever doing a Type III hardcoat you'll need at least a 0-60V PS
5 packs of Titanium wireNot necessary. Save your money, you can buy a roll of about 600 feet of 14 gage aluminum wire from McMaster for about $6 IIRC. That should last you through at least 50 paintball markers.
Standard LCD ano kitLook at the size of the tanks included with that. They're 12" diameter x 14" tall. That's tiny if you're planning on anodizing an entire PB gun with accessories. You'll never get the parts to all fit in a single batch, and you'll forever be fighting batch to batch variations in color. The gun will end up looking like crap. Also, with such a tiny amount of electrolyte, you'll quickly heat up your anodizing bath, requiring a chiller if you plan on doing multiple batches per day. I use a 30 gallon tank with about 15 gallons of electrolyte, and it's sometimes a bit small if I want to do multiple guns or larger parts. My recommendation is to skip buying the 'Kit' and figure out exactly what you need to buy, then buy the parts seperately. You'll save some money and end up with a MUCH better anodizing line. If you need help, let me know and I can point you in the right direction.
Electronic PH testerGood call. Buy it.
Nickel/chrome plating kit
Large felt bob kit (for polishing)
Brass wire wheel
50lbs of 100-170 grit fine glass beads (for sandblaster)

And here are the dyes I'm planing to buy:

Violet DS-4oz
deep red-1pt
flourescent yellow-1pt
flourescent pink-4oz
electric blue-4oz
Brown GL-4oz
grey BL-4oz
golden orange-4oz
green SCG-4oz
Black HBL-1pt
Violet 3D-4oz
Blue 4A-1pt
Yellow 4a-1pt
Red Bordeaux-4oz

Anything else I need? Any color suggestions? Everything came out to be $1548 shipped (I also ordered some extra supplies for the anno kit such as anno seal, Aluminum de-oxidizer & de-smut, Ano fume supressant, Ano & chrome stripper). Thank you for any advice!

[NeoMoses]

some more info...
[list=1][*]Type of anodizing: You're wanting to do Type II anodizing, which allows coloring and is fairly hard. This type of layer can take color well when as thin as 0.0002" but will not be as abrasion resistant as a good 0.0008"-0.001" thick layer. Your customers will definately notice and thank you if you go for the thicker layer. How to do this? Higher current densities, longer periods of anodizing. For instance, using the 720 rule, you'd want to anodize at 12 ASF (amps per square foot) for 60 minutes to achieve a 0.001" anodized layer. If doing this, you'll want a 1:1 electrolyte mix (more on this later) rather than the 1:3 LCD electrolyte mix. To achieve the same 0.001" thick layer using the 4.5 ASF in LCD, you'll need to anodize for 160 minutes, or 2 hours 40 minutes. As stated in the instructions, LCD anodizing is Good and Cheap, but not fast. If you're wanting to do this to make money, LCD is not the way to go unless you don't care about your time. [*]Power supply selection: You'll likely want to be anodizing using constant current at 12-15 ASF. This is pretty much an industry standard. A suitable power supply can be bought for less than $300 (brand new) on eBay everyday. My particular PS is a digital 0-30V, 0-20A CC/CV. If you can afford a 25A rectifier, you can afford a real benchtop power supply, which will work for both plating and CC anodizing.[*]Electrolyte: LCD calls for a 1:3 mix of battery acid to distilled water. Standard current densities (12-15 ASF) generally use about a 1:1 mix. Electrolyte concentration affects pore size, thus dye-ability, so you can't use an LCD system at standard current densities and expect it to accept dye well (or possibly at all).[*]Tanks: The buckets that come with the Caswell kits are tiny. Industrial anodizers use much larger tanks, usually large PVC lined steel ones. That's probably overkill for you. The most affordable tanks for small anodizers are rubbermaid-type totes, available in small sizes to about 80 gallons. Find one that fits your needs.[*]Stripper: Don't buy the caswell stripper, just get red-devil lye. It does the exact same thing, and is much cheaper.[*]Titanium wires may not be compatible with all dyes. I wouldn't waste my money on them, aluminum wires work just as well and are compatible with all anodizing dyes.[*]I cannot stress enough the importance of part preparation. Oils or other impurities on the surface of the part before anodizing will cause you more problems than anything else. Take proper steps to clean parts before anodizing.[/list=1]

Ok, that's enough for now. Ask me any specific questions you may have.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

A website for your business will be good :)

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

Thank you NeoMoses, you have no idea how much you have helped me out so far!

[Chronobreak]

hey

for cheap anno go to www.whitewolfairsmithing.com or chech his prices/setup for ideas but your prices are high compared to most anno places

[TeamImp]

hey neomoses you post on Caswell too! I'm annodizer or something like that, I posted in your thread. We'll lemme start: ANODZING IS NOT EASY! After this last gun, I am quitting, I dont not have enogh time to do it! Right now my quality is lacking beacuase I cannot devote myself. But surface prep is everything.

RT- If you need any help on PBN you know where to post! And PM Dager on there, damn he is smart!

LOGIC- Right on the dot :)