Nicad's trigger: could the angled sear actually be utilized due to this evolution?

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

OK, I kept this out of Nicad's thread out of respect but I found a comment about why the ULT can't be used that caught my curiousity: the reason the ULT can't be used is because the return force is too light, however the angled sear idea Jack and Coke, Redlaser666, and myself have fiddled with increased return force but requires a shorter actuation force. ALSO, the ram would run at a higher pressure but require less volume to actuate since it would be travelling a third of the distance, resulting in:
1.) Better efficiency since it still has to deliver the same force to the sear but uses a smaller chamber to do it
2.) A faster cycling rate possible with less ram travel distance
3.) A more compact ram allowing the creators of the hAIR trigger an easier time containing all components (and I have a very interesting 2nd idea on how to take advantage of that free space)

Now, it does require a harder pull but that's EXACTLY what the hAIR trigger is utilizing now. So with 100% being substituted for pull (actuation) length and I've probably butchered some of the actual physics exchange rates but it's the idea that counts:

48oz X 100%= 4800 w/ 144oz return force (Xvalve w/ return needed)

ULT
15oz X 100%=1500 w/ 45oz return force (not enough return w/ ULT)

Angled ULT (2X weight of original)
30oz X 50%=1500 w/ 90oz return force (prob. not enough)

Angled ULT (3.33X weight of original)
50oz X 30%=1500 w/ 150oz return force (enough force, 1/3 the distance)

With the third you'd have the same force needed with a third of the distance for the ram to travel, and yes, I do have a way devised to do this (a full 333%/33% swap) as well as align the ram that will be contained in the upcoming hAIR trigger in a more convenient manner to utilize this idea. I guess I'd be curious to hear other's opinions on whether this seems valuable or only complicating a current design. It seems a shame to not take advantage of the ULT.

[RRfireblade]

That minute amount of change in pull length won't have a noticable effect on anything. Keep in mind,your actuating the sear directly,not through the trigger. The sear itself only requires ~3/64" min travel to fire a Mag valve.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

That's true, and I haven't seen the internals of Nicads frame, and although the sear has to only move that distance, if this idea is pushing on the sear at the same location as a normal trigger does, then the point the ram is pushing may need to move further than that. What point on the sear do you recognize as moving 3/64's? And if you cut 1/64 off that while running at the same pressure I bet you could allow another 5-10bps/cps on average and less chance an early release on the trigger would prevent the 3-way sealing off the air to the ram, resulting in not enough force to actuate the sear. I am sure the idea is to keep the pressure high enough to not risk this, however this would in turn allow a decrease in utilized air to achieve the same assurance of it firing. Seems worth doing since ROF is what the average consumer goes for and the costs would be next to nothing since it would be making a change to the initial design that would really require no additional cost besides the ULT. If the frame was already out that would be an entirely different case. Also, any trimming of gas use is important since with the hAIR along with the mag's use of air already not being the best, it will help decrease the chances of a reputation of being a gas hog if it allows better efficiency.

Remember: that 1/64 X whatever the width of the ram will be isn't much, but it's that much air per shot not needed to actuate, being saved from being used (like saving a nickel an item isn't a big deal unless you sell 1million items a day) and also that much less air needing to be vented in the end as well to properly reset the trigger. Much like the idea of QEVs, you want that resistance air out of the way as fast as possible once it serves its purpose, and yes QEVs are another idea for the use of the space using a shorter ram would give.

[RRfireblade]

I understand what your trying to accomplish,I can just tell you that in my experience with using various rams of rather large variance of sizes(ANS miniram to a Kapp fat ram) there's really not a measurable difference in air usage.Not that I have done 'extensive' testing in this area but just what was able to notice in my fiddling.For instance,there is a greater variance in effective efficiency simply with various L10 tunings.

As for CPS,any decent ram will cycle well beyond 20-22bps so any increase there will not show any practical gains.

And lastly,I have always had the ram connencted directly to he sear makeing the rod contact point irrelevant.

The greatest potential for gain in the whole system is in a on/off redesign which I'm currently developing.The only real problem there is the technical problems of mass production on such a fine scale and the fact that,believe it or not,Mags are nearly dead for all practical purposes and I'm not sure it's worth the initail investments involved.

[the electrician]

I love mags, and have always had good luck with them, but, they are ineficient and need to much pressure to operate. high actuation forces beget high opposing forces to work with them.

you can pick at parts of the design 'till your blue in the face and sick in the head, but rrfireblade is right.

I've tested different size rams for response, air consumption, and needed operating pressure per the force generated. there is little difference between them. using a smaller ram at higher psi is a hair more efficient and has a hair better response. but the shorter the stroke the more minute this difference is.

I've found on the mag that the on/off pin moves a minimum of about .130"
if you put a ram at the very end of the sear, where the trigger rod is, it only has to move about an 1/8" tops this really short stroke means very little gain by using the smallest ram possible to do the job. the only advantage might be a physical space advantage.

I took a ULT on/off and put it in a classic valve. then I drilled a hole in the sear just above the original one for the trigger rod, just like what you guys were talking about. it did make the trigger shorter and stiffer. but it did not improve my ability to fire the gun. if I actually made it short enough for me personally to improve my rof, it would be fairly stiff again.

that's just my experience with it though.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

DOH! One of these days I'll have something that even The Electrician can't negate, that guy really knows his stuff. I definitely agree that my biggest concern with this hAIR trigger design of Nicad's is that it's going to require even more air per shot which is not going to help the automag's rep for efficiency. Oh well..... back to the drawing board.

[the electrician]

actually I'll bet the hAir trigger set-up uses very little air at all..

I know my e-mag mod uses a .375" bore actuator, with an 1/8" stroke at 50 psi. it single acting spring return design means it only uses air to push the sear, the spring returns the acuator so there is no pressure against the sear when it's coming back.

so basically it's using 1/16 the amount of air an average cocker would use to recock in one cycle. it basically uses .06 cu in. of air per shot.

I seriously doubt that the hAir trigger uses much more than that, if even that.

I'm seriously imppressed with nicads hAir trigger. it has to be the best non-electro trigger there is. I'm sure it could be used in several other guns too.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Oh, I agree with that. I'd be interested in seeing it utilizing in open bolt blowback and even a Matrix style, esp. if the mech-only tourney idea takes off and Dye wants to get their hand in it.