Clasic recharge.

[Lurker27]

I'm thinking of doing a budget spyder-framed mag, with tournament board, eyes, and the like. However, I cannot stand idly by knowing that past 16bps I'll be gettign shootdown...defeats the purpose, you see.

So how about this....make the stock reg (400psi ish) stop regulating, and lap an inline on there at about 800psi, and devolumize the dump chamber to make up for the gain in pressure. Things effectively will flow faster as well.

[personman]

If you're going to gut the reg then you dont need an 800 psi input.. I think you may be able to bring it down to about 400 psi or so. It is possible though.

[Lurker27]

goign to 400psi input defeats the purpose of gutting the classic reg, IIRC.

[redlaser666]

Increasing the presure will make the solenoid work harder, and you will also need a sronger bolt spring for the LV X to work correctly. It may also cause acelerated bolt wear.
I belive The Electrician was working on some mods to increase the capacity of the valve, so you may want to search for his posts here on the workshop.

[personman]

goign to 400psi input defeats the purpose of gutting the classic reg, IIRC.

If you run 800 psi into the valve directly you will probably be shooting like 500 fps.. I wouldn't try that.
The chamber needs to see around 400 psi IIRC. You adjust the input pressure to adjust velocity. The higher the input PSI the higher the velocity. Thats what you're doing when you turn the velocity adjuster on the classic valve. You're increasing the amount of PSI the chamber sees. (and therefore increasing velocity)

If you want to have less shootdown then you should either go x-valve or you can try putting something like a palmer fatty stabilizer that is reallly consistant and that MAY help a little. I'm not making any promises though. Your idea wont work though.

[trains are bad]

I gutted a classic once and ran it off a stabilizer. You need to run like 350-400 psi into the valve if you gut the reg, to get proper velocity. Remember with this setup you adjust the velocity with the stabilizer.

It ran better on co2', FWIW

[the electrician]

I believe he mentioned reducing the size of the dump chamber, and using the higher pressure(800 psi) to gain recharge.

this is what I've found out so far with my testing:

the lvl 10 takes more air pressure because it restricts flow. I've approximated mine needs almost 500 psi to do what the standard bolt would do with about 425-450 psi. this means more air in the chamber is needed. that means more recharge time, and there fore it loses bps. it went from 16 bps with no drop off, to 14 bps.

in order to get that back, the on/off can be modified to flow better by opening the holes in the sides a bit, and shortening the pin OR using shims, like the ULT does.
using shims and shortening the pin are just different means to get the same result. the shims is a wiser choice, being that it is not permanent this will get you back to 16 bps.

also, use a quad o-ring on the top of the RT on/off, and you will gain 2 bps worth of recharge rate right there. believe it or not. it only uses the bottom inner seal of the quad ring, so it is able to open up to a larger flow area faster. doing all this will get you to 25 msec recharge rate. which when used with a 30 msec solenoid energize time (a minimum that I recommend) that gives you 18 bps recharge rate.

using a modified RT on/off in the classic makes the on/off easier to push in and therefore easier on the solenoid pushing the sear. the ULT does this more so, but loses recharge ratre. not much point in that. I highly recommend using the RT on/off in a classic valve IF! you are using an electro frame. it will cut the minimum needed sear actuaton force in half.

the next thing is input psi. you don't actaully need to "operate" the gun at 800 psi to increase the flow rate of the recharge air.
think about this: when the gun has fired, and now the on/off pin comes down, letting air flow into the dump chamber. when this occurs, the pressure from the reg to the on/off pin drops, causing the reg to open. input psi air flows from the tank reg, through the mag reg, into the dump chamber. so increasing the input pressure actually does increase the recharge rate of the classic valve.
from tests I've done, I was able to get the recharge time down to 17 msec with an input of about 1800 psi. so if you had an adjustable tank, I would suggest running it at 1200psi, or as high is it can go, and that will shave a few more msec off the recharge time.

things to watch out for with sing the spyder frame. the solenoid energize time maybe too short and not adjustable. this may seem like a good thing for your battery consumption and recharge time, but in actuality, it is not good for the bolt. it can cause excesive bolt and sear wear. you may not have a problem with that, but chaeck your bolt for wear after a few hundred shots.

with the lvl 10, you may notice that it does not reset properly after stopping on a ball. that can be an affect of a short solenoid energize time also. the sear comes back up and pushes up against the bottom of the bolt, before the bolt hasa chance to reset. this can cause binding and faulty operation of the lvl 10 bolt, when combined with a halo, it can essentially "squeeze" the bolt from both sides, slowing it down and reducing max bps, even though you have a good recharge rate.
using the RT on/off can help this problem, along with polishing the top portion of the sear that will be riding on the bolt. be careful not to round or polish the catch part of the sear.