Mag Evolution?

[undescriptive]

hi guys (and gals)...
this caused me to only get 2 hours of sleep last night, but see what you think....

this is an idea for a mag evolution from it's "current" state (I might get terminology wrong - and I might have missed some huge fundemental sections, so please help out!!)

the valve of the mag would be mainly untouched, except for have a vastly shortened power-tube (approx 1/4" long)
No bolt - instead use a ram actuated trapdoor system to allow the breech to close, then, on this same ram, have the center part of the lvl7 bolt in this shortened powertube, so the operation is still pretty much the same as the normal valve (as an RT/X-valve cycles fast enough!) - cork from a bottle

as the ram reaches it's main actuation point, and the dump chamber is filling, the ram moves back into it's ready state....

I believe this would have a big benefit of a much reduced reciprocating mass (no bolt) and a huge reduction in pressure to fire the paintball (no bolt to move and no spring either)

the only thing I would like to see, would be a 2 stage air shot system - say 30psi or less to start moving the paint, before the full force of the stored air hit it (hopefully causing less breaks) - it would also have the benefit of making the whole package EXTRA small - approx 2 inches smaller.

well, it's just an idea, can anyone let me know if I missed anything - I can attempt to knock up a graphic if it's not overly clear from my description

cheers!

[Magaman]

[undescriptive]

that's what the slidey trapdoor attached to the ram would be for....
so yes there would be some reciprocating mass... but not much

with the breech hole covered, there should be no reason to have a bolt....?

comments?

[kapaintballman]

sounds like a good idea 2 me, i cant think of any flaws. i would still like 2 see a rotating breech, or even in a mag you could have the whole barrel rotate. kinda pointless, but that would be hot

[insixdays777]

this entire "trap door" thing has been done...its used in a marker called the Epic... very small...no bolt... check it out... http://www.icepaintball.com/

[kapaintballman]

yaya, i know all about the epic, but have you ever seen a trap door mag? or a rotating breech mag? if somebody comes up with a way to make the breeach rotate, they will be my hero for 5 days

[insixdays777]

agreed... instant hero status

[undescriptive]

yes, very similar to the EPIC... but not so ugly...

also with an Xvalve the cycle rate increases to 20bps+ and you could still use the Lvl10 bolt stem on the trapdoor - absolutely no chops

and also make it vert feed (or a nice 90* warp feed too )

[mikeller1219]

i dont know much about cockers at all but i was thinking you might be able to use the three way system of a cocker and use air to rotate the breech closed as you pull the trigger then open when you release it, i know thats only a two way and like i said i know very little about cockers and if you could even merge cocker and mag parts like that, it would be an extremly complex gun but it just might work also im assuming the ball is out of the barrel before the breech reopens correct me if im wrong...

[Rokudon]

problem i see with a rotating breech is that it would be reintroducing the weight lost from removing the bolt. plus having one that would oscilate(sp?) between open and closed might pose a problem of applying torque to the gun as you fire. then the next best type would be to have a fully rotating breech, 2 openings, and with everyshot rotates 180* with every full cycle. again there would be a torque issue, but only with the initial shot. then comes the problem of how to make such a mechanism to function properly and to get it rotating at the right distances.. and then you could have a bottom loading warp feed like thingy, or a loader port from the bottom(something to angle it up to hold a hopper) which has a rotating segment of breeches, when firing it would fully rotate another round in, and there would be an unknown amount of other breech holes for other balls. kinda like a revolver. but it gets reloaded every time it passes the bottom feed port. rotating breeches sound and look good, but there wouldn't be much of an advantage compared to current bolt systems as they would create more weight for the weight lost. then chopping becomes another thing to worry about, as there is a different design here, and figuring how to prevent them.. and then how to cock the gun and load the first shot... anway, my thots on rotating breeches

[kapaintballman]

ok, what if the rotating breech never really made a complete revolution....say so you have a tube(the breech) with 1 hole in it. at rest, the hole is open to the loading port(powere feed, warp feed wat have you) and probably with cocker pnuematics, when the trigger is pulled the breech rotates 90 degrees, and closes off the feed port, then the air is released to shoot the ball, when the trigger is released, the breech rotates in the opposite direction, so the hole in the breech will be open to the feed port again. and if you used a ram to rotate the breech, you could use it on a very low operating pressure, and would not chop balls check out my awesome microsoft paint masterpeice

[kapaintballman]

ok, i 4got to label something, the 1st pic is at rest, trigger released, 2nd pic is trigger pulled(right before air shoots ball) the 3rd pic would be the same as the 1st pic upon trigger release. now the mechanics of how to get a ram to rotate the breech...i have no idea

[Rokudon]

i may not have been clear in my answer, but the rotating breech like that would give oscillations, because you are rotating it back and forth. if you're fast enough when firing something like this, you'l start to notice it as the marker begins to tilt side to side from the force applied. or i might be exagerating the force too much.... but if you're really picky, you'l still feel it. best approach if it were to be ever done is for it to rotate in one direction only, torque would be applied on first shot, the strings after it would diminish as the breech is alredy gained enuf momentum.

[kapaintballman]

well i thought if the breech were made out of light enough material, you wouldnt be able to notice, but your right, it should just spin. i have no idea how this could be done, maybe with a small electric motor....but thats just no good

[undescriptive]

an electric stepper motor would work OK, as that can be controlled very accurately...

failing that, a pneumatic ram moving a ratchet as in a normal revolver....

trapdoor would still be better, unless the hopper directly attached to the rotating breech and it was a bit more like a drum style magazine....or a warp with a hole @ the right point in it to act as a breech!

be a bit like a vertical A5 cyclone.. hmmm....