Just a thought...

[Arstron]

I got a new freestyle recently, and it got me to thinking about my automag some more...

What if, you could connect a small ram to the bolt of an automag and sealed the on/off area so the air could still flow to the dump chamber, but not leak out of the valve. Then instead of using a sear, you simply use the ram to move the bolt forward, which the way the bolt is designed now once its so far forward it will allow the air to escape out the bolt and shoot the ball. The pneumatic ram would need to be similar to the ion where the ram would have preasure until the trigger was pulled, then the preasure from the valve would take over and move the bolt forward. This would need to be an electro pneumatic setup so the dwell could be adjusted for the ram of course, but could this work?

[noahyay]

sure, it would work, now you need to get a rt classic with a pump kit, fabricate your own ram mount and get a ion board and a reg

[FinchMan]

With the ion, it's designed to be an only slightly unballanced spool valve, so that it can be held back with a ram.

With the mag, the bolt is designed to be held back by a sear. So if you replaced the sear with a ram, it would probably need to be a really high pressure ram to hold back the bolt.

unless you were just replacing the return spring with a ram, in which case it would work, but it would be a complicated solution to just replace a spring.

[Surestick]

The lvl10 bolt should reduce the force needed to hold the bolt back

[BigEvil]

Ive been pondering the same thing for a while now.

In a mag design, you would probably need 2 noids. One similar to a Timmy noid to move the bolt/ram combo, and one to work the on/ff, simalarly to a Eblade on cockers. Any kind of system like this would require specific timing between the two. (like a cocker)

I have two thoughts on this:
1)Overly complicated, but
2)probably a huge performance gain.


I would also wonder how something like this would effect the guns efficency. Theoretically, you would be able to run the gun at a rediculously low pressure, since you do not have to overcome the main spring to fire the gun. BUT you also will need air to power the noid. Probably a good trade off though.

I wouldnt be surprised if this system was the way that Mag evolved.

[Arstron]

I have been thinking of that exact system for awhile, but like you said it would be pretty complicated. Instead of using a solenoid on the on/off, just set it up so the on/off is always open and the bolt is all that has to move. I know it would work, but I dont belive there would be an efficency gain due to quite a bit of wasted air. I am sure it could require less preasure (like BigEvil said) which might help though. This could be the first step though to creating a new bread of mags.

On a side note, I dont think the level 10 would work due to the anti chop system and if it did, it wouldnt be nearly as efficent. I am going to start working on this next week, its going to be a long process, but I think it will be worth it in the end.

Ive been pondering the same thing for a while now.

In a mag design, you would probably need 2 noids. One similar to a Timmy noid to move the bolt/ram combo, and one to work the on/ff, simalarly to a Eblade on cockers. Any kind of system like this would require specific timing between the two. (like a cocker)

I have two thoughts on this:
1)Overly complicated, but
2)probably a huge performance gain.


I would also wonder how something like this would effect the guns efficency. Theoretically, you would be able to run the gun at a rediculously low pressure, since you do not have to overcome the main spring to fire the gun. BUT you also will need air to power the noid. Probably a good trade off though.

I wouldnt be surprised if this system was the way that Mag evolved.

[BigEvil]

Instead of using a solenoid on the on/off, just set it up so the on/off is always open and the bolt is all that has to move.

I kinda of figure that you would need the on/off to be 'closed' for the bolt to return. (Just like the way it works now) If the air chamber was filling or venting when the bolt was trying to close than I think it would talk a alot of psi to force the bolt back. If the air chamber is empty, then it woudlnt require all that much.

[Arstron]

It shouldnt be any more psi then what it takes to hold it back. Either way I will find out.

[Scott Hudnall]

I've actually sketched designs for this very idea.

The only problem you have with the Ram or spool valve applied to the bolt/sear of the automag, with eliminating the on/off, is cutting the flow of air through the valve (the air propelling the ball). If you could figure this out it would work fine. My designs all look so spool-valvish that I'm certain it would be a patent infringement. Looking at the ION design, it's obvious it could be applied to the automag design, although some significant changes would be needed inside the 'mags valve.

eh....interesting, though.

[ultralight]

i'm not an ion fanboy, infact, after shooting one as a rental marker, i don't know what all the fuss was about. it's not that great. anyway...

you do realize that the end result of this discussion is the ion right?

you need some sort of on/of to stop the constantly open on/off from wasting air? the bolt doess that as it moves forward.
you need a ram to move the bolt back? the ion uses the bolt as a ram in a sleeve to reset.

the ion (the engineering anyway) is the next logical evolution of the automag.

in execution however, sp dropped the ball and produced a hideous plastic/rubber (you know that's why they can call it "composite". it is a composite of plastic and rubber) clad tube of cheap aluminum alloy with a bad reg and cast aluminum frame.

i'd like to see somebody produce an "ion 2.0". even if it's just a one off, i'd like to see the ideas behind that marker realized in a nice quality package. nicely milled frame with a decent trigger guard, thicker body without "composite", palmer reg, roller bearing trigger, blackheart board, and a nice clamping feedneck. all made out of 6000 series aluminum with cocker threads, or at least spyder.

[FinchMan]

hmm, two-part closed bolt ion?

http://airsoldier.com/~haveblue/tech/patents/20050217655.pdf

the bolt is still pushed forward by chamber pressure, but the inlet and output of the burst chamber is controlled by a second ram.


..still owned by smart parts

[Arstron]

Actually my thoughts are to make it more like a freestyle then an ion.

http://www.deadlywind.com/tech/marker_animations/index.html

[Coralis]

The one thing that might come back to bite you is the bolt design of the mag .... I think the only place you could connect a rod to would be the flared end that hits the bumper , im think you might get some binding/alignment issues there. On second thought perhaps it wont be that much of an issue as there are many pump mags out there . Anyway something to consider while you're still in the planning stages

[Arstron]

The one thing that might come back to bite you is the bolt design of the mag .... I think the only place you could connect a rod to would be the flared end that hits the bumper , im think you might get some binding/alignment issues there. On second thought perhaps it wont be that much of an issue as there are many pump mags out there . Anyway something to consider while you're still in the planning stages

Thats exactly what I am thinking about doing, taking a rail milled with a pump slot, adding a cocker ram to it, but having the rod setup so it touches the bolt at all times. The ram will have preasure on it at all times until the trigger is pulled, which will release the preasure from the ram and allow the bolt to go forward. The board will control the dwell which will determine how long the bolt will stay forward before the ram is preasurized again. I am waiting on a classic rail I just bought to arrive, once it does I am sending it off to get milled for a new pump slot. Once I get it back I will begin on working on this.