recent electro-pneumag findings....

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  • the electrician
    Registered User
    • Jan 2002
    • 542

    #1

    recent electro-pneumag findings....

    this information may be very helpful to those buildingpneumags, electro-pneumags like my design, and also of the direct solenoid type, like the spyder electroframed ones and such.

    I recently have been testing new mods on the old electro-mag. most of you around here know what I'm talking about. I noticed that certain design aspects, when not paid careful attention to, can cause pre mature bolt wear. not something you want, especially on a rather expensive lvl10.

    when setting the lpr pressure of an electropneumag type, one should calculate the approximate force needed to hold the on/off up. then divide this force measurement by the area of the piston of the MPA-3. this will give you the minimum needed lpr pressure to run properly.
    basically the operating pressure of the gun times the surface area of the head of the on/off pin. example: my mag runs at 470 psi , the stock on/off pin is .116 in dia. which has a surface area of .01056". so 470psi X .01056=4.96 lbs of force. now when using the MPA-3 with the spring in it, you must add 1lb of force to this. the MPA-3s piston area is .11. so 5.96 divided by .11= 54.18 psi. so you set the lpr to a MINIMUM of 54 psi. I would recommend about 60 psi.
    I noticed that the set-up can work at lower lpr pressure than it should be able to. but at this lower pressure, the MPA-3 can push the sear enough to release the bolt, but not fully have the strength to fully close the flow through the on/off. this can cause the sear to push back up against the bolt lip surface prematurely and when the bolt comes back it will scrape the bolt catch and cause premature wear. this is something that can be a potential problem in pneumag and electropnuemag designs.

    another thing that causes this premature bolt wear is too short of a dwell time. this is of course, is only a problem with electropneumags, and electromags in general.
    the short dwell time lets the sear come up prematurely, and it once again can scrape the sear catch lip of the bolt, causing premature bolt wear.

    to find out what your minimum dwell time is, I start at 30 msec, a time that is known to be enough in most cases. then reduce your recharge time until you notice that it just starves the gun. just about 3 to 5 msec too short. then reduce your dwell time, while leaving the rof the same. if this helps the recharge, and the gun does not starve, then you know that the bolt is coming back all the way before the sear comes back and you can try to lower the dwell again. use this process and set the dwell at about 5 msec more than it needs to be. alot of times it needs to be about 20 to 25msec, so I recommend setting it to 25 to 30 msec.

    I hope that was informative and not too hard to follow.
    ~E~
  • BigEvil
    www.BigEvilOnline.com

    • Feb 2005
    • 9333

    #2
    Wow.. after reading that twice I can honestly say.... that I need 3 advils


    But, thats some good info. I am finding even on my Xmod'd E and X mags, that 15 ms is too low and Im keeping the dwell between 15 and 20ms.

    My Electropneumatic frame is too early to tell with, but Ive been going with 10ms dwell and about 75 psi. (More than enough with the ULT). You can tell just by listening to it how input pressure into the noid and dwell effect the firing cycle.

    Also, what effect do you think having a shorter on/off pin has on this whole proccess? The Emags come with a shorter pin than all of the other guns dont they? What is the reason for that? I know that a shorter pin = more reactivity on a mech RT, so does that mean that the sear will reset itself faster?

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    • Ydna
      Paintball Manufacturer

      • Apr 2004
      • 264

      #3
      This is a little offtopic but has anybody out there used two solenoids to actuate the on/off and bolt independantly? You'd probably still have to pivot the sear, that'd be a hassle, but you'd still have the control.

      All this talk of the exact pressures and dwell times reallllly makes me want to try that out and see what's up.

      I'm also interested in the ventings times of the solenoid versus the actual time the mpa3 is in the switched position. I imagine it isn't much since they're all pretty small parts...
      Andy "Ydna" DuBuc
      Nummech Products & ZDSPB

      Comment

      • the electrician
        Registered User
        • Jan 2002
        • 542

        #4
        Ydna- hey what's up!

        yeah I started designing a two solenoid set-up, but it was with an air return bolt. the only problem trying to separate them is the overlapping dwell times needed calls for some other board than a morlock. an eblade boad would do it, but too many parts and pieces to buy. I went back to my original design of using one 4-way to control to separate cylinders. the bolt return cylinder and the on/off , or supply control.

        the exact numbers I give are basically just to say that you probably shouldn't go lower than that with the dwell because it can cause bolt wear. also don't try to run the pressure to low if you have a pneumag or electro pneumag set-up. don't try to split hairs. find out what the minimum needs are and give it a buffer from there.

        the solenoid I'm using is rated at a max 45 hertz. that's pretty quick so I kow the vent time is fairly quick, and the amount of air is fairly minute.
        ~E~

        Comment

        • BigEvil
          www.BigEvilOnline.com

          • Feb 2005
          • 9333

          #5
          Originally posted by Ydna
          This is a little offtopic but has anybody out there used two solenoids to actuate the on/off and bolt independantly? You'd probably still have to pivot the sear, that'd be a hassle, but you'd still have the control.

          All this talk of the exact pressures and dwell times reallllly makes me want to try that out and see what's up.

          I'm also interested in the ventings times of the solenoid versus the actual time the mpa3 is in the switched position. I imagine it isn't much since they're all pretty small parts...

          I was actually thinking about this last night on the way home from work while I was sitting for an hour in traffic on the Goethals bridge.

          A two noid set up is interesting, but how about this. If you can control the sear travel via a ram, then the operation of the gun wouldnt be dependant on the on/off pushing the sear back to the starting position like the emag design is. If thats the case, why not somehow incorporate the on/off pin into the sear. This way, the ram in effect is working the sear and the on/off operation.

          You can then set the primary air input down to about 500psi. (Im guessing on that of course). I doubt that having a set up like this would dramtically hamper the on/off operation.

          Comment

          • Majinebz
            Registered User
            • Sep 2004
            • 295

            #6
            Well, based off this, I thought about it but have not tried it cause I'm on a miltary base training and dont have any of my emags. When I was beta testing xmod 1.5 I thought about putting in a ULT kit in my emag. With that wouldn't you technically be able to have the dwell lower and not damage the bolt from the sear drag? Or would it still drag due to the fact the bolt does not return fast enough? EBZ

            Comment

            • the electrician
              Registered User
              • Jan 2002
              • 542

              #7
              yeah that's true the ULT doesn't have as much down force to push on the sear therefore not as much force on the bolt lip.

              a few other things, the standard on/off, or classic on/off would not have the problem of working at a lower pressure than it should be operated at because it takes more pressure to move the sear at first. the MPA-3 would need to generate enought force to move the .116 dia on/off pin and pull the sear off the bolt lip.
              when using the RT pin, like I was talking about earlier, to move the sear at first, it only has to generate enough force to move the small .072" end of the on/off pin, and move the sear off the bolt lip. that is less than the amount of force needed to move just the pin dia. of .116 , and that's really how wear problems can occur with too low of pressure.

              too low of a dwell setting is alot more common of problem I'm sure.
              ~E~

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