I.O.N. PA What Happpend?

[Ack]

Top 10 Safety Concerns

1. Safety Flairs landing on tents from powerful flare guns fired inside campsites.

2. The absolute lack of police security: only about 5 on 1 golf cart.

3. Unfettered access to alcohol and encouragement to use in excess i.e. beer bong challenge at pavilion during the NJ Titans gun giveaway! (NJ Titans had nothing to do with the challenge)

4. Almost no chrono checking on the field

5. Not defining the rules for so many noobish players; nor enforcing them (only saw people
get kicked for fireworks and fighting).

6. Not strictly reffing the over firing rule!

7. Not having enough refs (duhh...)

8. Not maintaining proper restroom facilities, I mean the last day there was a dead pig's head in the thing by the gun rental building! (shoulda had the porters cleaned daily)

9. No designated dead zones on the field where players could rest or store water,; take mask off for some air.

10. Not being hospitable to our concerns!

I'm sure everyone could say the same things about every big game, but this last one was so bad, I must state they must be taken with full concern. I don't think I will ever go back there unless I see improvements .

Okay.. I'm going to respond to several of these..

No.. I don't work for Skirmish, but I do play for their tournament team and I was at the event.

1. Flairs - These were shot off by the players / campers, even after it was posted on their website and tons of signs it was illegal to shoot fireworks. I personally tried to find the people doing these when they were close to my campsite. All I managed to find after they put them away and hit in their tents / campers, was attitude from the people around them. I'm not going to get in a fist fight for running through peoples stuff.

2. Police Security - not all the security guys had carts. There were probably closer to 20 and they were spread really thin across the huge camp ground.

3. Alcohol - last time I checked Skirmish didn't sell ANY alcohol. This doesn't keep people from bringing it in themselves. Several of the larger and more established scenario teams make it a habit of bragging about their 'pod juice' parties.

4. Chrono - I was one of the two guys at the chrono station early Saturday morning (before the other 5 showed up) and I chrono'd alot of people before the game began. Two in ten were under the limit. The rest I made turn it down considerably. At least a dozen refs on the field had hand chrono's during the game, one of my teamates found a guy w/ a DM4 ramping at 429 fps. He got escorted off the field. There were more people shooting hot than under on the field. So for everyone that was hot and got chrono'd on the field, alot of those guns ended up hot by time they hit the field. I understand spikes and I understand paint changes and I understand CO2, but for their to be almost a 70 fps change in some cases is the player turning it up when they are off the field. Will I admit we could have done things different.. yep.. but player responsiblity needs to kick in at some point.

5. Not defining the rules - this is paintball... you get hit, you get out. Keep your gun under 280, don't take your mask off unless in a safe zone and play safe. Does it really need to be anymore complicated than that? I'm not going to get into the scenario specific rules because that's not what 99% of the people on PBnation are complaining about.

6. Not enforcing the over firing rule - This goes back to two things.. players not leaving when hit and the overall decrease of the average players IQ. I can't stop ppl from over shooting people who won't leave. Not to mention that fact that your getting shot at by over (usually) 100 ppl at the same time. I played during Saturday during the last German push and didn't get over shot. I got hit.. put my gun in the air.. waited 5 seconds for everyone to see it.. walked off. Granted this don't always work, but expecting a hundred balls already in the air to just stop because the first one hit you is a little silly.

7. Number of Refs - You can never have enough refs. ever. I'm sure we'll all agree on this one. However, since everyone was nice enough to point out there were 75 refs on the field for 4000 players I would agree. BUT. The large fact they are unaware of were the 25 - 35 undercover refs on the field not on that schedule. You know that guy who was screaming at you to stay in bounds, keep your mask on, calling people out on his own side and generally having everyone around him ticked off for being a stickler on the rules.. ya that was me...

8. Restrooms - can't really give you a good reason. But this does happen at every large event, both paintball and other wise. And by and large paintballers are slobs. (could be because its the perfect opportunity for pre pubescent kids to sneak away and act like idiots..)

9. On field dead zones - these were used in the past. Unfortunately, they amounted to little more than on field bunkers. Players would use them to shoot out of and hide in until advances passed by then attack from the rear. That's not counting the millions of times they would enter, take their masks off and proceed to stick their head out to spectate sans mask.

10. Hospitable to your concerns - all I can say is speak to the owners Paul and Doug Fogel. I have no idea who you talked to or even if you did. You can contact them via email from skirmish's site I believe or call up and ask to speak to them. Best I can do on that one.


In closing,

I would have posted this on PBNation, but I didn't feel like getting in a tickle contest with the know it alls on that forum. I posted this here because we (as a community) usually are a little more intelligent about things. Everyone tries to raise the bar as far as the sport is concerned but last weekend was the biggest break down of player common sense I've ever seen. Yes there were reballs on the field (I and several teamates have the welts / bruises to prove it) but did *I* put them in your loader. Do I need to strip search you before you enter the field? Yes people were shooting hot. If you were chrono'd already .. why did you turn it up? Do we need to rechrono EVERY PERSON before they enter the field?

If people would have used a tenth of their brains this would have been the greatest game of all time. Instead a few dozen probably ruined it for everyone. The refs really did their best, but if police in riot gear have a hard time controlling a mob, how are we supposed to do it with an orange jersey?

- Jonesy

[Beemer]

Yup

There ya go.

Will I admit we could have done things different.. yep.. but player responsiblity needs to kick in at some point.

This seems to be the recurring PROBLEM.

Not defining the rules - this is paintball... you get hit, you get out. Keep your gun under 280, don't take your mask off unless in a safe zone and play safe. Does it really need to be anymore complicated than that?

Not really. Seems simple enough to me but to complicated for most. They just dont get it.

[mostpeople]

It is much more fun to play with a small group of guys you know (10-20) people if you can get that many.

That guy with the Dm4 should have been banned, and possible charged with assault. Almost 450 fps is not a mistake he turned that up after the chrono. Imagine if he hit someone in the back of the head with that thing, especially on ramp.

[Lohman446]

It would seem to me that if more people were shooting hot than not there was a problem with your chrono / enforcement system.

[Ack]

Or that people are complete morons and like to turn up their velocity to get that little extra 'umph' not realizing the danger they put everyone else in.

If I chrono someone onto the field and they turn it up 40 ft into the woods at what point is it their fault and not mine? I can only be proactive to a point.

I just hate the fact that everyone points the finger at the refs for not doing their jobs, when as players, we are failing ourselves.

[Lohman446]

Or that people are complete morons and like to turn up their velocity to get that little extra 'umph' not realizing the danger they put everyone else in.

If I chrono someone onto the field and they turn it up 40 ft into the woods at what point is it their fault and not mine? I can only be proactive to a point.

I just hate the fact that everyone points the finger at the refs for not doing their jobs, when as players, we are failing ourselves.

Like it or not very few people "run" paintball like it is actually a long term functional business. The business models are so poor that, until very recently, incredible customer turnover actually saved many places.

When I go on field I expect, for the amount of money I am paying, to have other players policed. I really don't care what it takes, I expect safety. Playing paintball costs money. There are reports of chornoing people shooting 40+ FPS above the limit.

If the limit is 300 I can understand some leeway (though I don't like it, players should build in there own, chrono at 280). The first time your caught shooting over (by more than 10FPS) should forfeit your playing fee - pay another $50 to continue playing - the second time you should simply be gone.

The fact is, lax reffing and enforcement has allowed paintball to get to where it is today. Have hte players pushed the envelope? Yeh, since day one . But noone (it seems) has ever demanded and enforced a stop to it.

[Dewok82]

$100.00 a case? I have paid as much as $135.00 and considered it a steal. And that was not at a megagame or tournament. Guess I have been out of things for a while.

When was the last time you played paintball? 1994? Nowadays, as much as it pains me to say it, volume equals accuracy equates eliminations which leads to victory.

I love Scenario games. They are target rich environments with plenty of action. I'm not looking to take out one or two of my opponents at a time with single well-placed shots. I like to find the groups of individuals who think their camouflage-taped q-loaded low-profile markers will allow them to gain some sort of advantage, and then I use tried and true tournament tactics to take them out. No matter what people may think, I CAN tell where you are and where your shot(s) came from. It doesn't matter how well camouflaged or hidden you are. Nor does it matter if your marker is a neutral color.

Oh, and yes, we know when you are trying to flank us. We are busy out-flanking you.....

To keep this on topic - Skirmish is meant for Boyscout troupes or corporate team-building exercises. No one who takes paintball halfway seriously plays there. Sure, it's a HUGE complex, however, the facilities are archaic.

I sincerely doubt the owner(s) are strapped for cash and couldn't afford some capital expenditures to implement improvements at the complex (stationary and sanitary bathrooms would be a good start). I know how much property taxes are in Jim Thorpe PA, and they aren't that much (even for a several hundred acre facility). I'm sure their insurance expenses are a pain, but it appears they cut enough corners on facilities, staff, rental equipment, and various other expenditures to make the owners more than enough money.

Not that there is anything wrong with that (WELCOME TO AMERICA), but I'm not going to play at a field where the owners are livin' large at the expense/sacrifice of the players.

For me, the icing on the cake was the grin on the paint sellers face when I couldn't find another buyer for cases of paint and had to fork over the extra $20 or so...

Just IMHO.

[Jaan]

If the limit is 300 I can understand some leeway (though I don't like it, players should build in there own, chrono at 280). The first time your caught shooting over (by more than 10FPS) should forfeit your playing fee - pay another $50 to continue playing

Although that's a good idea, I think if you did that you would be encouraging cheating on the part of the field. "Yeah, sure, you were shooting...uhhh...20fps over, yeah yeah, that's the ticket...Pay up or go home". You would also be encouraging the refs to do nothing but look for people shooting over the chrony limit but also not requiring tourney locks, since you WANT to catch people shooting over the limit. They do that now at big games, spend all their time looking for field paint violations and not giving a crap about overshooting, blind firing etc. Much like speed traps and cops...speed traps pay, bogus speed traps pay more, and catching rapists doesn't pay at all.

[druid]

I was there on the German side...Team PennDragon...likely, the only German in a MARPAT Digital Kilt.

First, I'd like to say that as always, I had a great time. I enjoy the game and the comraderie that comes with this sport. What I have a problem are the "Rogue" players that are out to make trouble.

However, I had my 18yr old duughter there to take pics (non-combattant) and dressed to the 9's with padding, newest lense goggle, etc. She got a ton of pics from Saturday but I made her return to the camping area at 1500 hours because of all the bologna going on...and did NOT let her return to the field on Sunday.

First and formost, if there were ~75 Rostered reffs for the game, they were too sparsely placed to do anything about anything. Even if you count the ~35 "ghost" reffs, a total of 110 reffs for 4300+ players is astoundingly inadequate. There needs to be NO LESS THAN 300 reffs for an event this size. Personally, I'd like to see around 400...ALL with chronos and ALL that know how to use them and EVERY FREAKING ONE OF THEM DOING THEIR JOBS.

Most of the reffs I saw were useless. They stood around, afraid to do their job. While I don't recall seeing "Ack" on the field (and I commend him for his self-imposed interferences) - the only ref I saw that's worth his weight in gold is the one on the beach, taking the guy down at the disabled tank. THAT dude needs a raise and 90% of the others FIRED.

I will not return to Normandy until they get their affairs in order. Player safety needs to be a NUMBER ONE PRIORITY...not paint sales and money-grubbing.

EMR has MUCH better reffing (although I must admit, it's been forever since I've been there) and they care more about the players. I will be going there much more often from now on.