PTP and Smart Parts in a race for the patent to the Quick-Release feedneck

[Maghog]

I honestly don't see anything straightening out.The Gardener boys started this crap years ago with their patent on electronics and since then the lawsuits have been coming in waves, with no end in sight.
I don't really see it spurring on innovation either, rather scaring off the small inventors who once built this sport. Companies need to invest time and money in lawyers more than they do in development and research. It's sickening to think how many really neat gadgets have never made it to the market because of all this.
The real irony is that those who started the legal BS, (yes that's you Smart Parts), are the ones who've never invented anything on their own! The only reason they're so successful is because their father is a high powered lawyer with good connections in the legal system.
No one wants this anymore, NO ONE! But none of the big players in the industry are going to stand down now. They've gone too far.
Personally, I'd love to see PTP get their due. Forest and Tracy have worked their butts off and stayed involved in the sport for years, always trying to benefit the game. For me, their service paid off, since I remained loyal to them from the first fixed barrel Micromag I bought to the last Micro E.
I'm not sure where you stand anymore Steve, your signature says 'NO MORE PAINTBALL FOR ME'. So what does that mean? You don't play anymore, but you're up to your neck involved in legal quagmyres that appear to be more fun to navigate than the anything the game itself could offer you.
I miss paintball, everyday. I miss the community I helped to build with people who had only fun and safety on their minds. I do take comfort in knowing that that community still exists, and I enjoy reading a lot of the posts that focus on the fun and action that paintball still provides. But this legal stuff is devouring the sport, bit by bit, and I sit in front of a computer and watch it happen. It truly makes my stomach turn.
Dan@Triggernomics

[thomas]

Rogue,

you sound like a wshing machine on agitating cycle.

Exactly.

Rabid, arguing with Rogue is pointless. In the end he will prove that he doesn't a have firm grasp on reality and then he'll delete the thread in an attempt to save face. Take note that his post count often has major fluctuations both up and down. To bad he can't erase all of AO's memory while he's at it.

[rabidchihauhau]

Dan,

where I stand is exactly this: I have closed my paintball business and am in the process of divesting myself of all business involvement with the industry, heading for the day when I will no longer have any financial ties to it.

In the meantime, there are loose ends that need to be tied off and there are friends and allies who need support or assistance or just plain old loyalty and friendship.

Once I no longer have to depend on this industry in order to put money into the bank, I'll be in a position to either play just for fun if I feel like it or leave it behind if I feel like it. I will no longer be in a position where I have to do something or can't do something for fear of whatever consequences there might be.

If continuing to work with a friend on an interesting project strikes my fancy, then I will (although its very likely that my wife will talk me out of it )

In the meantime, I remain four-square behind pro-team and their intellectual property pursuits. I believe that the applications they filed for (and some of which I assisted with) are valid, straight-forward, legitimate and not being obtained for purposes of world-domination, but rather out of defense and self-preservation in a business environment that requires such things.

I also have some other friends who have sought my involvement and advice regarding other IP concerns and they also are not pursuing these things for negative reasons but to protect and improve what they are doing.

I also do believe that the patent system, however flawed at this poiint in time, does essentially work the way it is supposed to. I've heard plenty of discussion and seen plenty of 'small innovaters' (Pro-Team is a perfect case in point) reacting to the issuance of a patent not with loud cries of agony but with the conviction that they are fully capable of inventing a different way - and then going out and proving it.

The dual goals of the patent system are to reward inventors for their efforts by giving them a limited period of time to exclusively control their invention and to encourage innovation by those folks who don't want to license. True - its much more complicated these days, but its still working; the exponential growth year by year in the number of patents issued just for paintball demonstrates that.

So, where I stand is I support Pro-Team, I'll tell everyone who will listen that they are legit, that their efforts are for self-preservation and that I think they're the shiznit. I'll continue to speak my mind regardless of the consequences (hell, its cost me millions at this point so why stop now?) and I try to be honest, straight up and forthright.

And Dan, I'm not involved in legal quagmires; I'm not suing anyone, I'm not bringing infringement actions against anyone. From me, what you're seeing is a discussion of the issues surrounding IP and paintball, very often particularly from the point of view of a couple of friends, and nothing more. Unfortunately, what no one is seeing are the agreements and licenses and contracts that go on behind the scenes in the industry where there is no public contention. Perhaps if folks had some idea of just how much of that ia actually going on, they'd be better able to judge how very few major cases there are in this industry. The only thing that gets written about are the arguments - never the agreements.

Thomas, thanks for the heads up. I don't mind discussing the issues on technicalities, or even speculating on the merits, but when it comes to asking me to do something that would be potentially detrimental to a former employer and friend, I just won't go there.

[ClassicMagger]

Exactly.

Rabid, arguing with Rogue is pointless. In the end he will prove that he doesn't a have firm grasp on reality and then he'll delete the thread in an attempt to save face. Take note that his post count often has major fluctuations both up and down. To bad he can't erase all of AO's memory while he's at it.

Thomas:

Don't be such a fluffer. I haven't seen many contributing posts by you here on AO.

Only those where you follow Rogue around throwing your jabs. Throw stones when you have contributed something to these forums, until then you just look like a big boner.

-ClassicMagger

[raehl]

Ultimately, these things straighten out. Its not sad for paintball - its actually accomplished its goal by spurring innovation and invention. Now, instead of one locking feedneck, we've got about half a dozrn different ways to do it.

But there's nothing 'better' about that, at least as far as the player is concerned.

We don't need a half-dozen different ways to do it. We need ONE unpatented way to do it, that would end up being cheaper than any of the half-dozen patented ways.

And I think this is where obviousness matters. If something is obvious enough that anyone offering a gun or a hopper would have ended up offering locking feed necks on their products anyway - we're all harmed by patents being issued.

- Chris

[rabidchihauhau]

Ahhhh, back to a discussion on patents in general as opposed to one particular case:

Chris - I partially disagree that one cheap and unprotected design is necessarily better than 6 or more patented ones.

For starters, 6 different patents on the market potentially drives down the licensing fees, since those looking to license will be able to shop. Also, with all things being equal (and of course we're just being hypothetical here) 6 different designs, licensed or not, all competing in the marketplace will also drive the price down.

Oh, and BTW, the prior art public domain very cheap clamp for loaders and feednecks has been on the market since the beginning of the game. Its called a Hose Clamp.

I'm not an economist, but its pretty easy to see the effects of more than one company offering competing products into the same marketplace; 1500 dollar electronic guns are arguably down to 1/3rd of that cost in the space of 3 or four years...

Now, as to obviousness. Again we seem to be confusing the "idea" with the actual implementation of a particular design.

I have no doubt that many people who made loaders or feednecks thought of the IDEA of something that would lock the two together. Despite how many different loader manufacturers and gun manufacturers there are, we only had a few go on to create a design for such.

Its first up to the PTO examiner to make the determination of such, AFTER they've looked at the submitted citations AND done their own review of the field of invention AND done (however cursory) a review of additional prior art.

Once the patent grants - AFTER office actions in which claims may be removed, altered, watered down, etc - if someone in the marketplace is convinced that something is obvious and should not have beeen patented, and they have a sufficient interest, its then up to them to spend the money to prove their case and, if they win, they'll recover and will have made the world a better place.

There is also the real world 'simply ignore em' approach of those who are convinced that their design for whatever is prior art or doesn't infringe. And then the shoe is on the other foot, as the patent holder is the one who has to shell out the bucks to prove their case. (And if they don't have the money to do so, they can sit and take it, as I've had to do...)

I suppose the major point is that "obviousness" is not so "obvious" when it comes down to the PTO rules and regs regarding such. I'm sure you know this but I think it bears repeating that since the PTO has classified paintball as its own field of invention, objects borrowed or inspired by use elsewhere are ripe for the plucking. If you want to become a paintball product designer - head on down to the local ACE store and take a look around - you'll find something you can adapt and apply for...

[russc]

The only reason they're so successful is because their father is a high powered lawyer with good connections in the legal system.

I'm pretty sure they're patent lawyers themselves...

[thomas]

Thomas:

Don't be such a fluffer. I haven't seen many contributing posts by you here on AO.

Only those where you follow Rogue around throwing your jabs. Throw stones when you have contributed something to these forums, until then you just look like a big boner.

-ClassicMagger

Point taken. But, if you take the time to do a search you'll see that by some twist of fate most of those posts/threads are nowhere to be found. Exactly as I stated. That's odd, don't you think? I was just trying to save Rabid some time and effort, when someone ruffles Rogue's feathers those posts have a history of being deleted and that is a fact.

If something I've written isn't true let me know.

[SummaryJudgement]

Uhh, this just occurred to me: Did Tippmann patent their removable feednecks on the 98 Customs? Those were removable in a way I don't think is covered in any of this I think.

Not that it matters, it just popped in my head. It just popped in there........(reference from what?)

[teufelhunden]

Poor Rabid.

Seriously, most posts he makes are informative, non-combative [unless provoked..], and he's a guy defending his WORK which he works hard on and has pride in. Standing up for what he thinks is right.

<3 interwebs.

[Maghog]

I meant no offense towards rabid. I find all his contributions to this forum to be very valuable. He has not spoken a word of nonsense, and has managed himself honorably. He's one of the few people where it's worth it to read through a long post that obviously takes time out of his day to write.
Looking from the outside, I saw a guy who denounced paintball in his signature, and gets involved in every legal\patent tussle on this board. Being someone who hates this greedy turn that paintball has taken, and knowing Steve a bit from the past, I only wanted to know what his point of view is these days. He answered as any well composed member on this board would, and that's that.
I would agree that my approach to him sounded edgy, and it may have needed to have been formulated differently. If I could do so, I'd say, 'Rabid, when was the last time you forgot about all this balogna and played a good old game of capture the flag?'
'Nuff said, now back to the topic.
Dan

[rabidchihauhau]

Dan,

and most folks reading would not know of past history and would not have any clue that it would be difficult for you to offend me.

I took it for what it was - a real question regarding a seeming disconnect.

[teufelhunden]

I meant no offense towards rabid. I find all his contributions to this forum to be very valuable. He has not spoken a word of nonsense, and has managed himself honorably. He's one of the few people where it's worth it to read through a long post that obviously takes time out of his day to write.
Looking from the outside, I saw a guy who denounced paintball in his signature, and gets involved in every legal\patent tussle on this board. Being someone who hates this greedy turn that paintball has taken, and knowing Steve a bit from the past, I only wanted to know what his point of view is these days. He answered as any well composed member on this board would, and that's that.
I would agree that my approach to him sounded edgy, and it may have needed to have been formulated differently. If I could do so, I'd say, 'Rabid, when was the last time you forgot about all this balogna and played a good old game of capture the flag?'
'Nuff said, now back to the topic.
Dan

Wasn't aimed at you. Seriously, your work is so sweet it basically exempts you from any blame or wrongdoing

More at the people who are "OMG PATENT BAD = RABID HORRIBLE!!!!11"