MOTM AO Input.

[RRfireblade]

An apparently mind boggling and seriously upsetting amount of confusion has surfaced over the Oldskool division of MOTM. I guess it's my fault since I allowed 'Classic' to be latched onto over 'Oldskool' which was the intent and point I had in mind. I had no intent on limiting it to Classic Mags only. I attempted to leave the guidelines widely loose ans subjective but it seems as tho some are not happy at all with that amount of flexability and would rather have a strict guideline for the contest so . . .

I'm asking what does AO want ?

My feeling was that since we have the OPEN class , anything goes , my issue for the added class division was that Xmags , DWs and other High end custom electros generally rule the open field.

Of course it takes money to build a custom marker but I don't like that pure finances can win over passion in a contest , not everyone can drop $1000+ on an Customized Xmag or DW bodied Emag/Pneumag/Devilmag so . . . the Oldskool Div was born.

Since I do this for AO , Here's the question and the point to you . . .

Please answer these :

1) Do you want only true "Classic Mags" or are we talking about OLDSKOOL in design/spirit /function ? 1b) Is a pump either ?

2) Custom markers allowed or only all stock ? 2b) Fixed Limit on customizations ?

3) Mmm , SS parts as a requirement or Alu okay ? 3b) How much of each allowed ?

4) Do we want all these distinctions ?

5) What else ?

6) Anyone pissed about the Open division ?

Thanks.

[Beemer]

6) Anyone pissed about the Open division ?

Ok that got a

[RRfireblade]

[going_home]

Dont Change a Thing Jay

Its great the way it is man.
Lot more variety since you made two divisions.

[RRfireblade]

What about in regards to just the Oldskool division tho ?

[BREAD_DA_PAINTER]

The way i look at it is its your "yard" if we want to play its by your rules ... if not then go home and be lonely ..

just need a bigger shirt for us fat guys .....


lol....

You do us a great deed just by hosting the MOTM... i want to just say thanks alot

[zazzoo]

What about in regards to just the Oldskool division tho ?

You started motm we go by your rules just because one person got mad shouldnt change it to much

[RRfireblade]

The way i look at it is its your "yard" if we want to play its by your rules ... if not then go home and be lonely ..

just need a bigger shirt for us fat guys .....


lol....

You do us a great deed just by hosting the MOTM... i want to just say thanks alot

Thanks , really and bigger shirts are coming as soon as I can get to 'em.

[warbeak2099]

Anything that does not have an x-valve is old school. If it has an x-valve it really shouldn't be in the oldschool section, it should be in open class.

A pump with an x-valve should be the only exception although pump/stock class play is experiencing a resurgence as a popular fad.

[rawbutter]

You started motm we go by your rules just because one person got mad shouldnt change it to much

I agree. I think MOTM has been going great thus far. I don't really think any change is needed. The more rules you add, the more complicated it gets, and the more disputes break out.... As it is right now, it's just something fun and simple. Let's keep it that way.

[[NA]WARLORD]

Please answer these :

1) Do you want only true "Classic Mags" or are we talking about OLDSKOOL in design/spirit /function ? 1b) Is a pump either ?

Classic Mags with parts of classic nature meaning of the time/era they were used in. Custom or aftermarket parts are ok as long as they were of the same era. Since the pump was never a production unit, then I would say no.

2) Custom markers allowed or only all stock ? 2b) Fixed Limit on customizations ?

If the Class is defined as Oldskool Custom and not Classic, I don't have a problem with it at all.

3) Mmm , SS parts as a requirement or Alu okay ? 3b) How much of each allowed ?

SS parts as in bodies/valves, but since everything else of that era was alumium, there shouldnt be an issue, but no ULE/X Valves parts, that kind of defeats the Classic nature of the Mag, IMO.

4) Do we want all these distinctions ?

That would be nice.

5) What else ?

Drop the Classic name and call it Oldskool Customs, this way there is no confusion in the future. Additional judges to help define Oldskool vs custom

. Thanks.

Your welcome

p.s. as far as pnuemags are concerned, the parts used should define what class it goes in. i.e: If it is Classic Valved Auto/Minimag with oldskool parts, then it should go in the oldskool division, however, if it has ULE'd everything, an X Valve and the like, it should be in the open division, IMO.

[RavishingEddie]

Problem:

There is no way that we would be able to correctly have two distinct entries. Automags are now mostly all oldschool! and there just isn't a giant pool full of old crap to build whatever you want. Just like Jay said, alot of us have no choice but to use new stuff on old stuff to keep the old stuff custom and nice. This is the same thing you see in Lowrider shows and other car shows.

Solution:
The solution is not to change the entries but to inform the voters on how to vote. For instance, I might have a kick butt Emag that for some reason or another would not win the open division, so instead I would join the Classic division by adding a few classic scrap to it. Then it would be on the voters to discredit my gun for lack of classicness eventhough it is shiny and has cool graphics.

Think there is problems now? You haven't seen nothing yet till you start pulling and categorizing (sp) entries.

[RRfireblade]

Problem:

There is no way that we would be able to correctly have two distinct entries. Automags are now mostly all oldschool! and there just isn't a giant pool full of old crap to build whatever you want. Just like Jay said, alot of us have no choice but to use new stuff on old stuff to keep the old stuff custom and nice. This is the same thing you see in Lowrider shows and other car shows.

Solution:
The solution is not to change the entries but to inform the voters on how to vote. For instance, I might have a kick butt Emag that for some reason or another would not win the open division, so instead I would join the Classic division by adding a few classic scrap to it. Then it would be on the voters to discredit my gun for lack of classicness eventhough it is shiny and has cool graphics.

.

Agreed. Precisely why I (currently) put the finalists in the way I do. I try and pick a variation based on the cross section of the entries.

I'm not sure if it seems like it to everyone but there is a ton of work in narrowing the field.

Basically how I do it is :

I start by grouping the related entries by similarity , that also depends on how many will 'group'. For example , if there are half a dozen DW bodied mags (open class) I group them together and pick the strongest entry there. Might be pumps in the Oldskooler. Then if it warrants , I break down Xmags the same way or Emags or pneumags whatever.

I try and then break those down into tops of each sub cat and then to the 5 finalist. Many times there are a few right on the line where I don't want to make the call so I put up anywhere from 6 to maybe 10 finalists so AO can make those close calls.

It's no picnic :0 and with the added class , there are more entries than ever and now more diverse. That was why I tried to leave it open ended so the arguements could be settled with the voting. As each month goes by I go back and recheck the past winners and look for trends to see if I'm on track with my thoughts.

9.9/10 times the winners is who I thought it would be right from the begining so I've been staying with my gut. Each month is usually a runaway between 1-2 markers IMO and I put a wide range in of runners up just see if AOs tastes suprises me. It usually doesn't like I said.

BUT . . .

I am more than willing to tweak MOTM if enough people ask. There's always some disagreement of course or it wouldn't require any voting but for the far and away most part , it's gone very smooth until this month so I put this here to see if there is any call to change of merit.

[Lee]

Jay: do what YOU want to do. it's your show done from the kindness of your heart. people that don't like it don't need to enter or comment.

unfortunately, there is pretty often an internets smart guy that dampens the mood. i'm sorry you have to deal with that crap.

props to the winners, props to the people with mags nice enough to enter this contest and props to you, sir, for being a stand up guy and doing something for mag owners when no one else is.

your choice is your choice. it's your deal. i personally vote based on what i think applies to each category. if i don't think a gun fits in, then i don't vote for it.

[koleah]

Here's the way I see it: not that many classic mags are very nice looking. A "classic" Classic mag is pretty much dull grey with some ss hose and a black rail and grip and silver barrel of some sort. Not amazing to the eye. But then, there was a lot of leeway in the old school days about how to customize a gun to make it look nicer/ perform better: an Eclipse splash kit for one. So I came up with the following:

In the spirit of "old school"/classic, I don't think the following should be at all allowed in the category:
X-valves
X-mags
X-mag/ULE lowers
any of the DW/RPG/other "newer" aftermarket bodies
X-valves
pneumags
vert/UMF frames
warp bodies

I think the following should generally be kept out of the "old school"/classic division, but if done right, can be allowed:
Original Emag lowers (micro-emag lowers included here)
Hyperframes
RT pro valves
Warp feeds
Macroline
ULE bodies
Emag valves

I think the following should be allowed:
Pump kits
Retro/ ReTro valves
Z-/ galactic bodies

I think the following automatically are included/should be given favor to:
Splash kits
Big bulky expansion chambers
Powerfeeds
RT's
CO2 tanks
Steel barrels
Classic valves
12-gram usage
Classic right- or left- feed bodies & minimag bodies
Carbon fiber frames
Benchmark frames
Bike grips
Duckbill ASA's
Hawaiian style tank setups
Steel hosing
Z-grips



Yes there is a good deal of iffy-ness to this list, like for example the winning gun this month had an X-valve on it. Although, I voted against it purely because of the x-valve, and the fact that the other pump gun had a classic valve. But thats just me, and obviously a good deal of people don't agree with that. And warp feeds, that was a tough one to put into a category. Its pretty old, but still doesn't seem to be in the spirit of "old school"/classic.