A Pneumatic Trigger from G-Force? Here's what we want!

[rawbutter]

Okay... so in this thread, G-Force announced that they will be producing a pneumatic trigger for mags. Many people (myself included) somewhat doubt that this is legit or feasible.


HOWEVER, I'm starting this new thread with the idea that this pneumatic trigger is real, and I am starting this thread with the intention of communicating to G-Force what our expectations and desires are for a pneumatic frame.

So, please don't bash the idea here. (You can do that in the other thread.) Instead, I want you to post your ideas for the perfect pneumatic frame. Who knows? G-Force just might get it right.

[jaywmustang]

if its a complete frame, i want it to take agd spec triggers

[Dark Side]

if its a complete frame, i want it to take agd spec triggers

QFT!

It's the only way to go.

[rawbutter]

My expectations for a pneumatic frame:


1. All penumatics should be completely internal (like this one). You should be able to bolt the frame onto your gun, screw your tank into the ASA, and go.
2. There should also be an option to buy just the pneumatics. Many of us have good frames already, and if the G-Force frame is offered with a Intelliframe, we don't want to downgrade from our UMF or Chimera.
3. The frame needs to be cost-effective. We can build our own for $100 (on top of the frame)... so we're not going to pay $300 for a fancy production version. However, if I could buy a frame for under $200 or the pneumatics for under $100, then I'd be all over that.
4. The frame needs to come SOON. If I have to wait two years for this... then screw it. I'm building my own. But if it can come out in the next six months or so, then I'll be very tempted.
5. When the frame is ready, someone here on AO should get a loaner frame to test. I for one don't really trust what companies say about their own products. But if you give one of these frames to pneumagger or papa)smurf or one of the others who have built their own penumags, and then that person tells me the thing is awesome, then I'll be convinced.

So, those are my thoughts. Anyone else have some?

[rawbutter]

if its a complete frame, i want it to take agd spec triggers

Amen to that too!

[BigEvil]

5. When the frame is ready, someone here on AO should get a loaner frame to test. I for one don't really trust what companies say about their own products. But if you give one of these frames to pneumagger or papa)smurf or one of the others who have built their own penumags, and then that person tells me the thing is awesome, then I'll be convinced.

I will volunteer my services for #5.

[Pneumagger]

My expectations for a pneumatic frame:


1. All penumatics should be completely internal (like this one). You should be able to bolt the frame onto your gun, screw your tank into the ASA, and go.
2. There should also be an option to buy just the pneumatics. Many of us have good frames already, and if the G-Force frame is offered with a Intelliframe, we don't want to downgrade from our UMF or Chimera.
3. The frame needs to be cost-effective. We can build our own for $100 (on top of the frame)... so we're not going to pay $300 for a fancy production version. However, if I could buy a frame for under $200 or the pneumatics for under $100, then I'd be all over that.
4. The frame needs to come SOON. If I have to wait two years for this... then screw it. I'm building my own. But if it can come out in the next six months or so, then I'll be very tempted.
5. When the frame is ready, someone here on AO should get a loaner frame to test. I for one don't really trust what companies say about their own products. But if you give one of these frames to pneumagger or papa)smurf or one of the others who have built their own penumags, and then that person tells me the thing is awesome, then I'll be convinced.

So, those are my thoughts. Anyone else have some?

Your expectations may be a bit unreasonable:

#1) is reasonable and i would expect the same... but it requires the use of specific asa's and on/offs. The customer base may not like the limitation on choices as they want to run remote, use a large drop, use an adjustable flatline system, etc. Logically they should offer three types including front LPR mount on the VA, foregrip LPR, or Internal LPR. The pneumatics should have a Q/D hose fitting the frame - that way a user with a front LPR can change ove to a vert reg or internal LPR - mine is like that and it's great for dissassembly.

#2) A kit would pretty much require modifying the frame in some way. Companies can't expect the end consumer to be tech savvy to install a system on their own and warrent it - let alone just use it correctly.

#3) A factory frame would have to have part interchangablity/replacability, should work more reliably, have quality control, and be a clean professional frame. Why would you expect a professional product to cost the same as a home product if it will be better? Plus you have to consider there are a number of people who don't have the equipment/skill to do thier own modifications. As long as the factory product is better they will charge whatever they reasonably want. When PTP/DW markets a frame I will be willing to pay alot because I expect it to br WAY better than anyone's home frame. All in all, a $250-$300 pricetag would be fairly reasonable - after all, we all got Xvalves and they were that much.

#4) I'm going to quote many AO distributers here...
If you want a product you can choose to have it any two of these ways: a)cheap b)well built c)fast

#5) Community testing seems like a good idea. I imagine an AGD tech, TK, or some other AGD qualified buisiness unit would have to evaluate the product and determine if AGD will condone it's use on the product. Videos and reviews would be released from there and Tom always seems to keep his flock safe. :)

If the patent litigation can be avoided by a 3rd party - which I doubt between PTP and DW standing on the hill... I would definately buy one if they're good.
However I am not holding my breath for this one.

[Zone Drifter]

I agree with the all internal pneumatics. However, a effective access to the reg to adjust trigger pressure would be there.

I understand that if the pneumatics are internal, then we might have to sacrafice a rail and trigger frame, that's ok in my eyes. (To go pneumatic, you gotta sacrafice something unless you build it yourself.) But at least have options if they become available. Everyone likes variety, and automag owners are about as diverse in their marker setups as anyone else.

What rawbutter said, cost effective. I know you can build one with the right tools and the conversion is cheap, but most people don't have the tools, so I would expect the price to be over $100 easy, but keep it reasonable. Theres enough money grubbing companies in paintball, we don't need another.

I'll try to think of more, but rawbutter hit all the main points. :)

[ClassicMagger]

Hey:

To make me or any of my customers buy I would require the following:

Made to AGD Spec. This includes: trigger, quality of items used, spacing, etc. etc.

All internal operation. I do not want to attach an LPR to the Foregrip for a variety of reasons: Slotted Foregrips-Some of the rails offered to the Mag community are able to adjust the distance their foregrip sits from their frame. Yes, you could offer a variety of hose lengths that would travel through the rail-BUT I do not want to deal w/ excess, hinder my abilities to change the position throughout the day, or not have enough. Not to mention we have AM/MM Rails and RT Style based.

Bolt on and ready to go. I do not want to have to modify a sear-it should be included if it requires modification. But I do plan on having to attach an airline or two to run this set-up.

WORKING SAFETY. Many fields require a safety and will not allow markers who do not have one to play. Also, refer to AGD Spec.-yes, that puts it out of spec.

Dependability-One of the primary reasons Tom stated that AGD did not ever get a working PRODUCTION prototype h.A.I.R. trigger is because of the complexity of it. It should be easy to adjust and not need consistent work to function properly.

If this all can be pulled off-it meets all of my needs and I believe that it will sell 'relatively well.'

My thoughts,

-ClassicMagger

[txaggie08]

a NON integrated asa option. My biggest complaint with the one ptp posted....I don't want to have to use your asa if I don't want to(I like my CCM thank you....)

[TheTramp]

My expectations for a pneumatic frame:


1. All penumatics should be completely internal (like this one). You should be able to bolt the frame onto your gun, screw your tank into the ASA, and go.

This is the only thing I really care about unless they offer several options including this one.

[MoeMag]

I dont want ANY microline p-hose exposed. I know autococker got away with it for a few years... but no.

Mags are rough and tumble and they need to stay that way.

[tech-chan]

I dont want ANY microline p-hose exposed. I know autococker got away with it for a few years... but no.

Mags are rough and tumble and they need to stay that way.

A-freaking-men

[Pneumagger]

What rawbutter said, cost effective. I know you can build one with the right tools and the conversion is cheap, but most people don't have the tools, so I would expect the price to be over $100 easy, but keep it reasonable. Theres enough money grubbing companies in paintball, we don't need another.

Did you forget your :dodgy:? Regular mech frames are over $100. The pneumatic frame will have a ton more associated costs than just the frame. If the frame comes in under $200 I'll crap myself. Also, keep in mind this wont be a HUGE production item - so costs will be higher due to the small market for mag owners.

Let's look at the chimera:
I'd guess the production cost of running 50 frames to be around $75 apiece anodized.
An ASA or on/off probably costs bout $10 to make and anodize.
Off the shelf pneumatics are another $25 - so we'll say manufacturing a bunch on your own is $10 per set.
LPRs could be bought in bulk around $25 apiece from a distributer.

That's about $120 just getting parts and now you have to take time to assemble and test all of them. Then market, sell, and ship them and afterwards provide warranty and service. On top of it all, you have to make a profit.
I stick with my original $250+ hope


-------------------------------
edit: and before any of you call shens...

When I was designing the first Cerberus frame I also designed a complete bolt on pneumatic frame. In fact that was the reason the frame was named the AirWalk... because the original designs I drew up were for a complete bolt on pneuframe. I looked into the costs of components and bringing it to just AO - just a handful of guys doing work in their spare time so-to-speak and the cost was pretty high. People would not have wanted to pay for $250 frames and my time more valuable to me otherwise. Also, I don't think jay or I would of wanted to dance on ptp's or dw's shoes. So the pneumatic version never really came to life and Jay manufactured the mech version of the Airwalk.

[Fantom]

Nice and Dandy

But, how many of us will commit to buy a pneumoframe from GT?

Will this company be content with making 100 frames at a manufacturing cost of $100 each, give them to the distributors at $140 to be sold to us at $200 so they would make a grand profit of $4000? And that is if 100 of us buys one each, something I doubt it will happen.

Following my skimpy logic, I don't think this company will ever get it out to the market. The economy of scale is not there.

Just think....how many thousands of IONs get sold every month vs. how many Mags gets sold every month?

All the kids playing speedball use IONs, Invert Minis, Angels, etc.

All the people playing woodsball use mostly Tippmans and old Spyders and once in a while I see an occasional BT-4 or MR1. Only once I have seen an Automag.

That means, that if I, as a manufacturer would make an accesory for a Tipmann, I have good chances of selling them at a reasonable price. If I make accesories for Automags....most likely will not sell them because I will have to price them extremely high to recover costs.

Conclusion: don't expect GT or licensee to get one to the market, ever.