Please explain

[Bolter]

Humans like shiney stuff endorsed by shiney Pro's.

[rabidchihauhau]

wish I could wave aluminum foil in front of them for money...

[drg]

I have been out of PB after a few years (had kids) and am finally getting back into it. They one thing that makes absolutely no sense to me are these electric markers. The light trigger pull and overall weight makes sense. They are extremely fast from the factories yet everyone continues to buy after market boards for them. The hoppers to feed them are outrageous. It seems like there is a race to the most bps. The puzzling part is where do you use this stuff? If fields and tourneys limit you what is the point? You tube videos?

I think the high BPS "problem" is overblown, particularly on AO where BPS envy seems to color most peoples' opinions. It's mostly about personal preference. That said if you are shooting a 15bps limit, it is good to have a gun capable of more than 15bps. *Should* give a more reliable and consistent 15bps than a gun just barely able to reach it. 20 vs 30 bps? Probably not a whole lot of PRACTICAL benefit to that but there's always the perception that more is better, and 15bps should be *that much less* taxing on a 30bps gun than a 20. Whether or not that is a fair perception.

As for buying boards, there are many other reasons to buy boards than raw BPS. Increased tunability, flexibility (modes), quality, etc.

[Lomarandil]

Yup, teams are starting to volunteer now to ref SPPL events, and it makes a world of difference.. at the same time, Jayson will have to be careful about who he lets do it to avoid politics.
Lo

[rabidchihauhau]

they're going to run into the same problems that NPPL and PSP (and everyone else on the tournament side) ran into, from the subtle to the sublime:

Good refs will walk the fields well before the event - teams know how to do this. Presumably teams also know when they spot those special terrain situations. If they have done their homework, there is a good chance that critical information about the field will leak out.

Good refs become familiar with the rules in advance, including objectives. This information leaks out.

Player refs have friends and they have enemies, just like everyone else. It IS possible for individuals to put aside their personal feelings and judge fairly. It is IMPOSSIBLE for them to do so without giving an enemy an opportunity to bring their calls into question.

Team players have sponsors. There is ALWAYS someone who is willing to play the sponsor card; from being asked to cut someone a break because they're in the same family, to never giving any calls to a rival sponsor's players, to being accused of making calls one way or another because of the team affiliations.

Teams that are competing as well as officiating can ALWAYS be accused of colluding with other teams. Always and despite the evidence.

Reffing teams that share affiliations with competing teams can ALWAYS be accused of fixing things for their "buddies".

Even teams that aren't competing can be accused of working with another team, sponsors, whomever.

This is a good case of the blind leading the blind. Teams reffing events didn't really work for tournaments, but because most all the problems get glossed over, now we've got another format doing it.

[Lomarandil]

Exactly, as I said.. however, the first two points don't apply (field layout and rules are fully open to the public to view, no secrets there), and at least now, that level of sponsorship where you have teams with 'rival' sponsors doesn't exist. Yet.

I just talked with Jayson about this tonight though.. and seems that he has a solution in the works.
Lo

[rabidchihauhau]

If SPPL runs things based on their rulebook, then concealment of flag stations and other terrain/game features is critical and what I said does apply.

Regardless of this particular situation, it still applies. Who's got the advantage - someone who walks the field once for a few hours before the game or someone who's been over it and over it for hundreds of man hours?

Additionally - solution? Riiiight. Let's see:

make everyone take an oath
hire locals who "won't ever be playing in the series"
hire a team to ref all year - that way they aren't "competing"
get the local tournament players to do it (the equivalent of having amateurs ref semi-pros)
add to the penalties and rules to try and legislate good behavior
and a whole host of other seemingly plausible things that have been tried over and over so many times I'm bored writing about them.

But this sentence takes the cake. " ...that level of sponsorship where you have teams with 'rival' sponsors doesn't exist. Yet."

Dude - the very absolutely first nano-second after the word competition entered the picture, rivalries existed. And if you don't think some people are willing to cheat over getting an extra squeegee in their pocket, you don't know paintball...

[lather]

I think the high BPS "problem" is overblown, particularly on AO where BPS envy seems to color most peoples' opinions. It's mostly about personal preference. That said if you are shooting a 15bps limit, it is good to have a gun capable of more than 15bps. *Should* give a more reliable and consistent 15bps than a gun just barely able to reach it. 20 vs 30 bps? Probably not a whole lot of PRACTICAL benefit to that but there's always the perception that more is better, and 15bps should be *that much less* taxing on a 30bps gun than a 20. Whether or not that is a fair perception.

As for buying boards, there are many other reasons to buy boards than raw BPS. Increased tunability, flexibility (modes), quality, etc.

I agree...
A funny thing I notice is that a lot of complainers (about rof/electros) have no issue with carrying RT and egriped tippmanns. I have been bonusballed more by these yahoos playing scenarios in the Northeast much more often than when I was playing tournies in Hawaii against the "evil ramping electros" ....go figure

[Lomarandil]

If SPPL runs things based on their rulebook, then concealment of flag stations and other terrain/game features is critical and what I said does apply.

Regardless of this particular situation, it still applies. Who's got the advantage - someone who walks the field once for a few hours before the game or someone who's been over it and over it for hundreds of man hours?

Additionally - solution? Riiiight. Let's see:

make everyone take an oath
hire locals who "won't ever be playing in the series"
hire a team to ref all year - that way they aren't "competing"
get the local tournament players to do it (the equivalent of having amateurs ref semi-pros)
add to the penalties and rules to try and legislate good behavior
and a whole host of other seemingly plausible things that have been tried over and over so many times I'm bored writing about them.

But this sentence takes the cake. " ...that level of sponsorship where you have teams with 'rival' sponsors doesn't exist. Yet."

Dude - the very absolutely first nano-second after the word competition entered the picture, rivalries existed. And if you don't think some people are willing to cheat over getting an extra squeegee in their pocket, you don't know paintball...

I play tourney and SPPL, so I understand where your mindset is coming from. But it very much seems as though you haven't seen an SPPL qualifier.. It is unlike every other form of competitive paintball I've ever seen...(and that includes a LOT)

One, the flag stations and fields are in place usually at least one day prior to the qualifier. They aren't kept secret by any means, and teams are free to walk them. Beyond that, they are set up that day previous, so it'd be impossible for anyone to have "hundreds of man-hours" on the fields.

I agree that a perfectly foolproof situation is impossible.. but there are ways to govern reffing, and from what I've been talking to Jayson about... this solution will be viable.. not ideal perhaps, but viable.

I'm not saying that rivalries don't exist, they do... I could list half a dozen friendly rivalries, and a couple not so friendly ones. However, your average SPPL team isn't sponsored at all, and those that are are minimally so.. only a handful of teams have large industry sponsors. Because of that, sponsor "rivalries" haven't yet made an appearance in the SPPL. That's what I'm saying.

Hope that clears some stuff up.. and hope you can see an SPPL event for yourself.. the sportsmanship and camraderie that exist there is simply incredible, and that's why I've become such an avid supporter of it.
Lo

[rabidchihauhau]

I've read their rules inside and out; unless I'm looking at not the latest edition, the rules state that there are various bonus objects hidden around the field and that that information is to be concealed from the players prior to play.

Dude, I saw "people playing fair and having fun in the woods" more than TWO DECADES before this SPPL thing ever came along. I wish we had stayed in the woods - the game was a lot more fun AND challenging - BUT

SPPL is walking down the exact same path that tournament ball did. "No one cheats, everyone is friends." Only some teams are minimally sponsored - except it just so happens that the current champions ARE a heavily sponsored team, sponsored by a company that only recently decided to jump on the milsim bandwagon and a company that historically has used competitive play to market their product. Very, very interesting, that.

Anyone else who wants to win now has to step up to that bar.

I'm not being nasty - I'm being realistic. What you think is a great new way to play is old school, what we used to do before all the money came in and its now going down the exact same path of corruption that tournament ball went down. I'm sure that you are convinced of what you say and I'm even sure that there are lots of good people, with the best of intentions, working on and playing in this thing. But this is like one of those 'throw the baseballs at the milkjugs' game; EVERYONE thinks they can do it until they find out that the milk jugs are NAILED to the ground.

For however much you wish you were onto something new, I'm sorry to say that after 25 years of hard knocks with this game, I can guarantee you that it isn't and it won't be. Again - good luck, more power to ya, come on back when I can say "I told you so".

Just in passing, here's a little hint for you; many many moons ago I heavily sponsored a major national event with product and advertising and also sponsored a team entered into the event. Talk about getting a ride. By the end of the first day, most of the other teams were ready to leave unless "something" was done about my team. Know what was done? The promoter said to me "Your team gets no more gimmes from now on."

Which of course implies that they got plenty of gimmes during the first day of games - which means that if that kind of favouritism was shown to one team, it was shown to at least several others; which means that the actual results of the event are completely and totally invalid.

Same thing couldn't be happening in the SPPL - right? I mean, its NOT sponsored by folks who also sponsor the championship team, right? And I'll just bet that company is upping their sponsorship support. Wanna bet a dime?

[rabidchihauhau]

I think the high BPS "problem" is overblown, particularly on AO where BPS envy seems to color most peoples' opinions. It's mostly about personal preference. That said if you are shooting a 15bps limit, it is good to have a gun capable of more than 15bps. *Should* give a more reliable and consistent 15bps than a gun just barely able to reach it. 20 vs 30 bps? Probably not a whole lot of PRACTICAL benefit to that but there's always the perception that more is better, and 15bps should be *that much less* taxing on a 30bps gun than a 20. Whether or not that is a fair perception.

As for buying boards, there are many other reasons to buy boards than raw BPS. Increased tunability, flexibility (modes), quality, etc.

NO envy here. I know for a fact that pneumatic mags can blow the doors off of any electronic marker out there today; I wouldn't hesitate to play anywhere against folks with their choice of marker and mode against my A.I.R. valved automag - and I bet anyone running an electro would love to have one that kept on working even when the batteries were dead...

[hitech]

NO...I bet anyone running an electro would love to have one that kept on working even when the batteries were dead...

Hey, mine does!

[drg]

NO envy here. I know for a fact that pneumatic mags can blow the doors off of any electronic marker out there today; I wouldn't hesitate to play anywhere against folks with their choice of marker and mode against my A.I.R. valved automag - and I bet anyone running an electro would love to have one that kept on working even when the batteries were dead...

Mine certainly wouldn't work very well once my Halo batteries died ...

No battery issue = also overblown, and smacks of eletronic grip envy, since they are so hard to find/get/are so expensive for 'mags.

[hitech]

...smacks of eletronic grip envy, since they are so hard to find/get/are so expensive for 'mags.

Uh, you don't realize who you quoted, do you?

E grip envy... That's a good one...

[Beemer]

NO envy here. I wouldn't hesitate to play anywhere against folks with their choice of marker and mode against my A.I.R. valved automag - and I bet anyone running an electro would love to have one that kept on working even when the batteries were dead...

Shhhhhhhh, now dont go telling em you are one of the really fast guys on the team.
Me and My A.I.R. Hmmmm an all A.S.T.M. Team. We better bring some skill. I know some FAST guys on the trig. What if...........