Tom....Need a Favor...You Military paintballs

[Trunnion]

a friend of mine has an AK, and as far as accuracy is concerned it can even come close to an M-16. you might want to check on that one. their barrels are shorter, and the old 7.62x39mm have a much lower muzzle velocity than the 5.56x45mm used by the M-16(almost 300 m/sec slower). i've never used an M-16, though i will in april, but from what i understand they're rather accurate weapons, despite the well known reliability problems. i can't speak for the newer AK74s, which use a 5.45x39.5mm cartridge. i don't know anyone who's used one, and i haven't read anything about them. the greater range is definitely not accurate. the bullet is a larger caliber, but the case is alot shorter. their maxiumum effective ranges are both about 400 meters. actually, i do believe the M16A2s firing the SS109 rounds(i'm not sure of the ammo's official M designation) extended the M16's effective range to 550m.

[HyperSnyper]

Originally posted by AGD
...They hurt a LOT...

LOL, Tom aint kidding, look at the AGD tour vids, inside the warehouse range where they test shots, and look at the freaking dents it left in a metal door.

OMG, for the love of God, I will never with those things (well maybe Ill pay WITH them, but not AGAINST them)!

-Hyper

[Army]

The AK series is are wonderful testament to reliability, but that is the only accolade I'll ever give them. Their reliability is due to the ammo shape, and the very loose tolerances in the reciever group. Accuracy is non-existent, ergonomics is rather sad for western standards, and they are poorly made. I know there are many tales of them being pulled from bomb craters and firing off the whole mag like it was new, but I can tell you just as many about how jammed up they were.

The M16 series did have it's teething problems, as any new system will. Ordnance blew it by allowing them into combat before all testing was complete. One test was to change the powder type. This one, unfortunately, was passed over before Winchester changed the powder type in '67. The new powder created more carbon than the operating system could handle, thus resulting in the horrible stories of men getting killed with their rifles field stripped in the mud next to them.

In late '67, Winchester returned to the original powder, and the fouling problems went away, but it was too late for the guns' reputation. Even now, I still hear tales of the gun jamming up for no reason. But when I get the gun to inspect, it has been so neglected by the user, that it wouldn't work without a full rebuild.

Not too long ago, I was given the enviable task of firing 10 M16A2's to destruction, fired at full auto (removed the burst clutch), only stopping long enough to swap magazines. Despite melted handguards, burnt-through gas tubes, launched flash hiders, broken pistol grips, cracked buttstocks, and heat discolored recievers...each weapon averaged 2400 rounds before it refused to fire. 4 were still able to fire after being hosed down, and 2 did not quit until they had fired over 6000 rounds each.

The AKs we did the same test to? Less than 1000 rounds before the forearms caught fire, buttstock bolts broke, mainsprings broke, gas tubes blew off, and complete bolt lock occured. Hosing off the guns did not make any difference, in fact one reciever snapped in two when the water hit it.

Accuracy? If you have an AK that shoots better than a 4" group at 100m, you have a high quality gun. If you have an M16 that won't shoot 1" at 100m, you have a bad barrel.

I'll take my sweet 16 over any current weapon, of any countrys' military.

Richard Marchinko writes fine fictional stories about his Red Cell and Team 6, but despite being a former SEAL Commander, he knows SQUAT about weapons and their capabilities. (BTW, in his "Rogue Warrior" autobio, he goes into great detail over the death of one of his team members. The very much alive and not wounded SEAL, says "Dick" is an idiot).

[AGD]

Speaking of Marchinko, one of my good friend has met and spent time with him and thinks he is a god. Goes for everything he says. I on the other hand spend a weekend in the booth across from him at a military show when he just published his first book. Not a single person came up and said anything to him or bought any of his books. I was wondering what the story was with the guy, good to hear some inside dope from people he writes about.

AGD

[zads27]

mm.. Exactly what Army said.. cept for the:
"I'll take my sweet 16 over any current weapon, of any countrys' military. " statement.

Sorry about this one, but I have to stick with HK's G36.. lots of polymer making for a fairly light assault rifle, folding stock, different sizes (full size, K series and the new C series), the very nice dual sighting system, pushpin field stripping (very fast), and most of all reliability reliability realiability.
HK tested a G36K for over 25,000 rounds without cleaning, without any failures.

I like the sweet 16 too, but gotta stick with HK on this one.

[Top Secret]

Gee, this thread changed topics fast! Lots a fellow gun owners here I see.

ARs and AKs suck! They will never eat the M1 carbine!

[magmonkey]

ARMY,
you are right on about the slop tollerences on the ak
I had one a chinese stamped reciver model and it was not a nice piece, but by far worse than that was the sks and the mac10 the sks was so sloppy that you could make it fire by litteraly shaking it too hard and the mac used to fall apart while firing (the bottom of the magizine would fall apart and then you would have to go searching for the sheet metal bottom the spring and a dozen or so 9mm rds)
ohh those were the days I'm glad I got rid of them

[sajohnston]

You are kidding right?

M1 Carbine the best battle rifle of all time? It is a plinker's toy at best. I own one manufactuered by Singer with an original paratrooper's stock. I bought it more for the stock than the weapon itself.

Like I said I hope you are kidding about it as a battle rifle.

[Top Secret]

Actually, the AK, M1 Carb, nor the AK are real battle rifles. A Main Battle Rifle is something like the G3, M14 or FAL. .308 holes make invisible souls!

I love my Inland Carbine though. Nice and compact with the Paratrooper stock. Excellent car gun.

[Gup44]

Have you guys seen the new OICW (Objective Individual Combat Weapon) that is supposed to replace alot of the M16's and M4's in combat by 2009? It is made by Alliant Tech Systems. It looks like a mean weapon. I used to live by an ATK factory so I looked them up on the web to see what they made. I was pleasantly supprised. I had often heard large "booms" from the direction of the factory, but never new what it was... Then after seeing this, I new they were just testing stuff!!

http://www.atk.com/defense/descriptions/products/Shoulder-firedWeapons/oicw-new.htm

[Hysperion]

I still agree with myself......the G-36 is by far the most reliable weapon system made. And zads27 the actual number was 46,000 rounds before failure. Granted this was not on full auto or probably even close but still....the reason it is able to do this is because whereas the M-16 blows all the carbon and crap right back into the gun after firing, the G-36 expels it.....

[zads27]

Actually I believe the G36 test was done on full auto, but don't quote me on that, I'm not sure.

In regards to the OICW, the actual weapon is being made by HK. The lower rifle portion is actually G36, with an M16 magazine adapter! (the military has a lot of those, I'm sure, right Army? )

Each OICW is $10,000-$20,000 (last figure I read).. personally, I'd just get a MSG90 and a G36 myself for that much dough.

[giant1515]

man

where do you guys find the money to get those things. I can barely afford to play paintball. That and oh, aren't assault weapons supposed to be illegal in the US? I don't know the laws that well because i'm too broke to start looking for real guns but that was my impression. Are all you guys military or something?

[sajohnston]

you just opened a barrel of monkeys!

The gov't has targeted certain aspects of guns (magazine capacity, stock configuration, etc) in an attempt to remove certain guns from the civilian market. Most of the guns people have been chatting about are legal to own in the US as semi-automatics. Full auto versions are only available to persons with a Class 9 license. In my opinion the most lethal gun is also the most unregulated- the shotgun. They are cheap, deadly at close quarters, most states have no waiting period on them and you don't even have to be a good shot with one.

A lot of us are military, collect guns and participate in many shooting sports. Guns are like tools, right one for the right task, that is why many people own more than one.

A few years as a "single guy" once you start a decent paying job and no matter what your hobbies are you will no doubt equip yourself nicely. Do it quickly, it all comes to a screaching halt the day you get married, and it goes into reverse when you atart having kids!

[cphilip]

FN was also an early maker of Browning designed guns. And if I am not mistaken they own a major share of the Company name of Browning.

Here is an excerpt from the oldest affiliation I could find between the two:

"July 17, 1897
A contract between Browning and Fabrique Nationale was signed which authorized the Belgium firm to manufacture a blowback operated 32 caliber semi-automatic pistol for all markets outside the United States. Production commenced in 1899."

And another one:

February 8, 1900
The first of four patents were filed on the revolutionary autoloading shotgun. It would be manufactured by Fabrique Nationale in 1903 and by Remington Arms Company in 1905."

And then some more developments in the history of FN and Browning:

January 1902
In a disagreement about the public acceptability of the autoloading shotgun, John Browning severed his nineteen year relationship with T.G. Bennet of Winchester.


January 8, 1902
An appointment was made to show the new shotgun to Mr. Marcellus Hartley of Remington. This meeting was canceled by Mr. Hartley's untimely death that afternoon.

February 1902
With his autoloading shotgun securely tucked under his arm, John Browning embarked on his first ocean voyage. He would offer the new shotgun to Fabrique Nationale.

March 24, 1902
A contract was signed granting F.N. exclusive world rights to manufacture and the sell the autoloading shotgun.

Summer 1903
At the request of F.N., Browning developed a 9mm military semi-automatic pistol.

1904
In the face of restrictive tariffs, F.N. agreed to cede to Remington the rights to manufacture and sell the autoloading shotgun in the United States.

June 21, 1909
The application for a patent on a 25 caliber semi-automatic pistol was filed. It has been manufactured and sold by both F.N. and Colt. It was part of the Browning Arms Co.

February 17, 1910
Patents were filed on a 45 caliber semi-automatic pistol. It served as the official United States military sidearm for almost 75 years.

July 26, 1919
Patent application filed on a 22 pump action rifle that would be produced exclusively by Fabrique Nationale

1936
Auto-5 "Sweet Sixteen" was introduced.

1940-1942
After the German occupation put a stop to Belgian production, Remington made an American made A-5 for Browning. This was their Model 11, but included the magazine cut-off which was not a part of the Model 11. U.S. entry into the War ended this production.

1945-1949
Remington resumed making American made A-5 for Browning until they discontinued production of the Model 11 to introduced their new 11-49 autoloader.

1946
F.N. resumes A-5 production

1958
Browning Arms of Canada created, 70% Browning owned, 30% F.N. owned. Also a 20 gauge model of the A-5 added to the line. 3" Auto-5 Mag 12 introduced.

1960
F.N. Mauser Bolt Action Rifle added to the line. Trombone 22 introduced to Canada.


1965
T-Bolt 22 rifle introduced. A line of leather goods including belts, holsters, and flexible gun cases also became available. Browning began negotiations with Miroku Firearms in Japan. Entered the sailboat business with the acquisition of Newport Boats of California and Virginia. Assets liquidated in 1976.

1977
90% of Browning Arms Company outstanding stock was purchased by F.N. and Miroku.