A "note" about overshooting

[Temo Vryce]

When I played in tournaments the over shooting rule was >9 hits from a single source. For most rec games that's too much so I have always felt that for rec games >5 from a single source would be over shooting.

As for the original post. It's hard to say if the if kids accusation of over shooting was justified without know how many times that he got hit. It's hard to hit someone more than 3 or 4 times on a run by if you're just running by. If you start to circle them a little I can see the hit count rise.

I do agree that if you dish it out you should be able to take it. It's kinda like the surrender rule. If you don't want to be shot from extremely close range range don't do it to others. I don't normally surrender unless you can touch me with the barrel, but I do offer it to those I feel will take the option. ie young kids.

In closing, based on the information available I would say that the kid was upset that he got bunkered by an old guy and wanted to get back at him and made a kiddish move in calling over shooting.

[lidocaine]

Quick threadjack.

The surrender rule needs to be if you are surrendered from a 5-10 feet away you HAVE to call yourself out IF your surrender'er has you in his line of sight.Its complete BS that someone you have offered the surrender rule to can turn around, shoot you 3 times in the face and the game continues with YOU out.Some people would say "hey just shoot them all"
it's sad that I would have to shoot them all because I dont wan to ruin a rentals day of fun, or really anyones day of fun because I shot them from 5 feet away and maybe they would have surrendered, maybe they wouldnt have, but why put my "life" on the line and take the chance when its legal to just shoot them on the spot?

Am I messed up or what?

[punkncat]

Quick threadjack.

The surrender rule needs to be if you are surrendered from a 5-10 feet away you HAVE to call yourself out IF your surrender'er has you in his line of sight.Its complete BS that someone you have offered the surrender rule to can turn around, shoot you 3 times in the face and the game continues with YOU out.Some people would say "hey just shoot them all"
it's sad that I would have to shoot them all because I dont wan to ruin a rentals day of fun, or really anyones day of fun because I shot them from 5 feet away and maybe they would have surrendered, maybe they wouldnt have, but why put my "life" on the line and take the chance when its legal to just shoot them on the spot?

Am I messed up or what?

Surrender rule is a completly different topic, but I will play along.

On the pay field where I reffed many years the surrender rule was that IF you had the jump on someone, as in coming up behind them they didn't even know you were there, once you got within 15 feet you could give them the option to surrender. If they made any sort of move other than to raise hands and say they surrender then you could shoot them with one ball. The downside being that if they chose not to take it and shot you then it was your tough luck.
We had a rule about shooting from any closer than 15 feet anyway...

Now what I hate is when you go to venues that abuse this courtesy. Especially what I have seen called the "take the hit" rule. You will have some idiot walk up to the front of your bunker, can't even see you and start yelling "take the hit" just because he knows you are back there. You light his stupid (butt) up and then he runs off complaining to a ref and the promotor because you didn't honor the rule.
And uh...NO it's never happened to me. Not bitter...uh...no...

[chinstrap]

Interestingly enough, I witnessed (and experienced) this type of stuff just last Sunday.

We had some walk-ons with rentals out in the woods and some "pro" speedballers came out to join us, some using pumps and others with their tourney gear.

I noticed that I got hit a LOT more after I had been eliminated than I did while playing, including about 9-10 to my back/extremities from about 20 feet away while I was covering my barrel with a bright orange barrel bag (difficult to miss in the woods). I have a funny feeling that it was retaliatory too, since I had just told the guy he needed to work on his manners after his head asploded with: "OHMYGODYOU'REOUTYOU'REOUTOHMYGODIHITYOURHOPPERYOU' REOUTGETOFFTHEFIELD!!!1!!1eleventyone!" before I could even tuck back into cover to check. Granted, it might be the difference with the goups I'm used to playing with, but I think telling the other guy that he's "out" is just plain rude, and doing it like that is...well...worse. I think a simple "check your hopper" would have been more appropriate.

I don't really have any specific accounts of the renters getting bonus-balled, but I'd be surprised if they didn't have similar experiences to mine based on what they were saying in the staging area - ie: "Those guys are [jerks]".

After the entire experience of playing against this large group of guys with their 20+ BPS and the desire to apply it liberally, I have come to a few conclusions:

1) They don't know the difference between shooting at someone and providing heavy cover fire; it's the same amount discharged regardless, but at the wrong end of the scale.

2) I doubt they assess the situation before unloading on whatever bipedal organism they see.

3) When facing that kind of thing, the game no longer feels like a sport.

4) This is the big one:

There will likely be two types of people in this situation: those who lean towards the ultra-competitive side and the casual ones who, when they don't like the way something's going, simply walk away and do something else they think will be more enjoyable.

When applied to these new walk-ons we had, I see two things happening:

If any are competitive, they will attempt to level the playing field with the same technology and behavior, etc. that the [jerks] have, subsequently propagating the badness.

The casual ones are unlikely to come back.

Personally, I've been considerering both decisions over the past couple of days.

[Spider-TW]

"OHMYGODYOU'REOUTYOU'REOUTOHMYGODIHITYOURHOPPERYOU' REOUTGETOFFTHEFIELD!!!1!!1eleventyone!" before I could even tuck back into cover to check.

I was watching a speedball game and realized another typical behavior. It's the guy that cannot leave the field without eliminating one other person, whether he gets overshot for it or not. If the ref pulls him out first, he yells "YOUR HIT PLAYER! GET OFF THE FIELD!" when he didn't even make a decent stand in the whole duel and there's another ref standing across from the other guy.

The screaming is pretty rude, but if that's all they do I'll put up with it. It's like Tae Kwon Do tournaments where a guy kicks you in the arm and screams real loud like he got the best point of the match, hoping the judges will agree. You'd rather let the shot speak for itself, but some people like to sell it.

We have a older teenager at our field that is nice enough to talk to, doesn't play 'agg' at all, and never says much, but I have seen him play on while being covered in paint and he has missed a shot at me because he was trying to hit me in the back of the head at about 20 feet. So I cut the 'agg kiddies' and the screamers a little slack until they make 'the list'.

[robnix]

Interestingly enough, I witnessed (and experienced) this type of stuff just last Sunday.

We had some walk-ons with rentals out in the woods and some "pro" speedballers came out to join us, some using pumps and others with their tourney gear.

I noticed that I got hit a LOT more after I had been eliminated than I did while playing, including about 9-10 to my back/extremities from about 20 feet away while I was covering my barrel with a bright orange barrel bag (difficult to miss in the woods). I have a funny feeling that it was retaliatory too, since I had just told the guy he needed to work on his manners after his head asploded with: "OHMYGODYOU'REOUTYOU'REOUTOHMYGODIHITYOURHOPPERYOU' REOUTGETOFFTHEFIELD!!!1!!1eleventyone!" before I could even tuck back into cover to check. Granted, it might be the difference with the goups I'm used to playing with, but I think telling the other guy that he's "out" is just plain rude, and doing it like that is...well...worse. I think a simple "check your hopper" would have been more appropriate.

I don't really have any specific accounts of the renters getting bonus-balled, but I'd be surprised if they didn't have similar experiences to mine based on what they were saying in the staging area - ie: "Those guys are [jerks]".

After the entire experience of playing against this large group of guys with their 20+ BPS and the desire to apply it liberally, I have come to a few conclusions:

1) They don't know the difference between shooting at someone and providing heavy cover fire; it's the same amount discharged regardless, but at the wrong end of the scale.

2) I doubt they assess the situation before unloading on whatever bipedal organism they see.

3) When facing that kind of thing, the game no longer feels like a sport.

4) This is the big one:

There will likely be two types of people in this situation: those who lean towards the ultra-competitive side and the casual ones who, when they don't like the way something's going, simply walk away and do something else they think will be more enjoyable.

When applied to these new walk-ons we had, I see two things happening:

If any are competitive, they will attempt to level the playing field with the same technology and behavior, etc. that the [jerks] have, subsequently propagating the badness.

The casual ones are unlikely to come back.

Personally, I've been considerering both decisions over the past couple of days.

Posted this somewhere else in response to shake and back hoppers only for rec play, but it holds true to this thread.

One of my favorite places to go, and my favorite place to take new players has the following rules for rec play

1) 15 foot rule. Shoot within 15 feet and your gone from the game with a warning. Do it again and your gone for the day.
2) 3 hit rule. If you get hit three or more time by the same player, you're out, but you have the option to call that player out as well.
3) Be nice and have fun, arguing with refs or other players will get you tossed as well.
4) NO cussing. <- I've seen this one enforced before as well, it's pretty funny.

They work well, I saw one warning happen, and two guys pull other players out early in the day. Both of the guys that went with me had never played before and rented gear. They both had a GREAT time. If you put the right rules in place and do a solid job of enforcing them, then this can be a fun sport for everyone, regardless of age or gear.

[93civiccpe]

^^ I like those rules.

The place I've been trying out lately is different than most places. You chrono at 300fps. There is no required surrender rule (but you are encouraged to offer it if there are youngsters present). Blindfiring is allowed and ENCOURAGED. ALL modes of fire are allowed.

Basically, it seems to be the opposite of what you see at most fields. But the referees due an excellent job of running the fields. The level of control has been nice. Their rental markers are rt'd Tippman A5's, so even the new players have plenty of firepower. Due to the field layouts there are a lot of opportunities for extremely close (point blank) confrontations. The fort layout for example, on the charging side when you get to the wall most people flip their gun over the wall and blinding spray inside. People just know where not to be if you don't want to be in that situation. There is no chance for a surrender rule when trying to overtake a fort.. you just shoot everyone. But at the same time the overshooting hasn't been terrible until this past weekend.

On one level there is a bridge that the offensive side has to cross, pick up a flag, and return it across the bridge to their base. It is almost impossible to do that as the defensive team has good cover positions and is deeply dug-in. With under a minute left in the game one of the "sponsored" players from the field was out of paint and thought that trying a mad sprint across the bridge would be smart. Needless to say, there were probably 15 or more guys who threw lines of paint on him, and he ended up on the ground in the fetal position. On the opposite side, it ended up that a a player from each team was on the opposite side of a pile of logs, and only one person knew that there was someone on the other side. He came over the top with his marker and shot 7-10 rounds directly into a player. Fortunately the player was a ref playing on his day off who didn't get mad. He actually had about 4 or 5 shots that were actually bleeding. (Go figure, 300fps and point blank shots...).

Finally, the last layout we stayed for was the "escort the VIP level". Well, 30 seconds to go and the VIP decided to make a mad dash even though his teammates hadn't even put a dent into our defense. I threw several balls into his chest and stopped realizing he was clearly out, but then realized a teammate still had a really fast stream still going into him as he went down to the ground into a curled up position. I acutally was yelling for the teammate to stop shooting as the VIP was already out, and his response was "It's on unlimited ramping.. I had stopped, but there were still 15-20 balls in the air when I let off".

That is my primary reason for banning ramping during Recreational Play. I prefer full auto to ramp, because in full auto when my finger is off the trigger the gun stops. Whereas ramping still throws some extra balls. I saw too many people bleeding this weekend from up close shots.. which didn't need to happen. Part was because of stupid "heroic" actions, but part was due to the close proximity and uncontrolled markers.

[usagi_tetsu]

Quick threadjack.

The surrender rule needs to be if you are surrendered from a 5-10 feet away you HAVE to call yourself out IF your surrender'er has you in his line of sight.Its complete BS that someone you have offered the surrender rule to can turn around, shoot you 3 times in the face and the game continues with YOU out.Some people would say "hey just shoot them all"
it's sad that I would have to shoot them all because I dont wan to ruin a rentals day of fun, or really anyones day of fun because I shot them from 5 feet away and maybe they would have surrendered, maybe they wouldnt have, but why put my "life" on the line and take the chance when its legal to just shoot them on the spot?

Am I messed up or what?

Nope, I agree with you. If you have a rule that says "no bunkering" or "no shooting at other players under 20 feet", then it has to be a mandatory surrender. And, if they do turn and shoot, they're out for this game and the next, whether they hit or not. But with that, you have to expect the reffing staff to actually perform their job and enforce the field rules.

Now, I have played on fields where they don't allow bunkering, but do allow the "bunker knock" - if you slap a bunker (or whatever an opposing player is hiding behind), then they're eliminated. I like that rule, and have no complaints about getting eliminated that way. Saves me from counting the bruises the next day.

[halB]

Most times, the resposibility for getting overshot lies with you. Situationally, an aware player should know most of the time what is coming and whether they are at risk for getting bunkered or pinched and possibly overshot.

While I am clearly on the "you can be overshot and I hate it category," I emphatically agree with you. This is the reason why I call myself out whilst playing even if it's a bounce. I figure if I was so damned sloppy that anyone could hit any part of me even once, they can probably light me up. And when I get to the very very end of the game, and I'm the last one on my team and I'm gonna get bunkered, I definitely play more aggressively, so if I am shot it's probably from 20 feet away instead of 3. You are right, a lot of people seize up and don't move, and they get bunkered for it.

This is clearly an issue with so much gray area it will be hard for anyone to come to consensus. But how bout we try?

[halB]

Quick threadjack.

The surrender rule needs to be if you are surrendered from a 5-10 feet away you HAVE to call yourself out IF your surrender'er has you in his line of sight.Its complete BS that someone you have offered the surrender rule to can turn around, shoot you 3 times in the face and the game continues with YOU out.Some people would say "hey just shoot them all"
it's sad that I would have to shoot them all because I dont wan to ruin a rentals day of fun, or really anyones day of fun because I shot them from 5 feet away and maybe they would have surrendered, maybe they wouldnt have, but why put my "life" on the line and take the chance when its legal to just shoot them on the spot?

Am I messed up or what?

That's why I only play at 260 fps. That way, I can light up these people and not feel bad. Also, the balls fall and curve down at about the rear 20. So you can easily drop balls over a bunker and get people out!

[B-Pow]

I feel this needs to be said, I'm 23 realitively new to the game only playing consistantly for a year. But I favor the old school for play style, honor, and fair play.

The other week a friend of mine and I who he is FROM the old school while I /study/ the old school were playing virtually a 1 on 1 he was using a 15 year old stroker and at this time I was using a 06 gen4 intimidator (I took out the 04 mech cocker after that, to work more on skills instead of using the crutch of trigger speed). He ran across his back line from corner to corner and in one of my 3 shot stings (I was really trying to work more on leading targets, gun control, and aiming) I hit him in the armpit. I heard it, he popped out gun down and asked if it was a hit. I stared at him from basically the dead center of the field (gun down) and couldn't see it. Told him he looked clean and to play on...play resumed. I eventually cought his hopper and after the game on closer inspection realized that I had hit him and it did break. We laughed, that is fair play, that is the honorable game that I WANT to play.

With that as a backdrop to the style that I like and the people I really enjoy playing with, When I do a "bunkering run" witch is rare, as I tend to avoid them. I fire one shot and one shot only when I cross the plane of the bunker. Since the people I play with tend to see the style I play weather the ball breaks or not they call themselves out and walk off. Afterwords I apploigise and explain why I only fire one shot. At that range I would be very appreciative if the person who was going to do that to me just shot one...because that's all that's needed to know that you've been bested.

However if shooting at distance and they have good cover (against your angle) and they get 2-3 extra, I don't feel so bad because they had usable cover, and could have easily prevented it. But if I managed to get a totally clear shot on them by superiour position then it's 1-3 shots tops with some time between each to see reaction of the other player...because it should be a gimmie.

When I go out to play like this the new-er kids like playing with me, and I explain how the "golden rule" relates to the game. They tend to take the lesson to heart especially after they watch agg-lets play before/after the open group walks off.

Everyone just needs to remeber one thing, "shoot others how you would like to be shot"

[Empyreal Rogue]

Quick threadjack.

The surrender rule needs to be if you are surrendered from a 5-10 feet away you HAVE to call yourself out IF your surrender'er has you in his line of sight.Its complete BS that someone you have offered the surrender rule to can turn around, shoot you 3 times in the face and the game continues with YOU out.Some people would say "hey just shoot them all"
it's sad that I would have to shoot them all because I dont wan to ruin a rentals day of fun, or really anyones day of fun because I shot them from 5 feet away and maybe they would have surrendered, maybe they wouldnt have, but why put my "life" on the line and take the chance when its legal to just shoot them on the spot?

Am I messed up or what?

The field I play on caters to any playing level experience, so when I play there are a often a lot of kids that show up. So you really have to pick and choose who you offer a surrender to.

But if you're the one offering the surrender, and that player shoots you I see it as being your fault. You had the advantage and let your guard down, and that's why you were eliminated. If you're in that situation where you have the line of sight, offer a surrender and they say nothing then just shoot them somewhere where it won't hurt at that range. The foot, pack, or hip. Or just barrel tag them. And be wary of what movements they make, especially with their mask and shoulders. If they look at you and you see their shoulders start to move, light 'em up. If you offer them a surrender and they don't take it, they know what they're asking for.

Everyone just needs to remeber one thing, "shoot others how you would like to be shot"

This is a great saying that applies to not just paintball, but all of life. It's definitely a saying I myself live by. Well said, B-Pow.