This is what happens when you pay 1600 for an overmilled amrker (taken from PBN)

[robnix]

not likely with a stock mag frame though perhaps with one of the aftermarket frames being milled to be super light.

I was making a quick turn in a muddy field with no cleats, slipped, and went forward, planting a mag with a ULE, Shadow Rail, Hyperframe, and a Stiffi barrel straight into the ground. When I got up, the barrel was about six inches deep, but nothing was bent or broken. Got a nice bruise on my forehead where the hopper smacked into me.

[drg]

I was making a quick turn in a muddy field with no cleats, slipped, and went forward, planting a mag with a ULE, Shadow Rail, Hyperframe, and a Stiffi barrel straight into the ground. When I got up, the barrel was about six inches deep, but nothing was bent or broken. Got a nice bruise on my forehead where the hopper smacked into me.

Proving ... what? Most guns can take a barrel-plant without damage, the barrel-marker junction is pretty strong.

[questionful]

I personally think mags can take more of a beating than most tourny-style guns, but unless someone does some testing, I'm pretty much talking out my butt. And I don't think anyone is willing to do any significant testing on such expensive subjects.

[drg]

I personally think mags can take more of a beating than most tourny-style guns, but unless someone does some testing, I'm pretty much talking out my butt. And I don't think anyone is willing to do any significant testing on such expensive subjects.

That is probably true but by no means does that reflect poorly on tournament-style guns. Hummers can take a lot more beating than Corvettes, but you don't use them for the same things. Cars today in general are built less sturdy than cars of yesteryear but these were conscious design decisions to meet specific needs.

[Enemy]

That is probably true but by no means does that reflect poorly on tournament-style guns. Hummers can take a lot more beating than Corvettes, but you don't use them for the same things. Cars today in general are built less sturdy than cars of yesteryear but these were conscious design decisions to meet specific needs.

ohh bad analogy.. cars are built sturdier or actually stiffer than ever before which is why weight is close to or more than the cars of yester year.. but they are also built with crumple zones that absorb the force of the impact to keep it away from the driver.. hence crashes of yester year that were fatal or now survivable.

onto to topic.. what no one seems to realize is that in retro spec the frame bending turns out to be better than it staying stiff in the same circumstances that caused the bend. on the other side of it with the exception of the UL frame none of these frames have obvious weak points and all of them hold up well enough for normal use.

on top of that is thickness that you can make a frame and still have room for the board and a battery. the plain fact is that the guns pictured should not need to be designed to hold up against these types of accidents and all of these omg complaints need to just stop!

Again in a twisting situation the weakest point will break.. which would you prefer a bent frame or a cracked pressurized cylinder that just so happens to be next to your head or facing your shoulder!

wtf happened to looking at pictures like that and just going ouch! whys this have to be a my marker wouldnt bend like that conversation?

[questionful]

whys this have to be a my marker wouldnt bend like that conversation?

Well, it is AO. . .

AO, you need a psychiatrist!

[drg]

ohh bad analogy.. cars are built sturdier or actually stiffer than ever before which is why weight is close to or more than the cars of yester year.. but they are also built with crumple zones that absorb the force of the impact to keep it away from the driver.. hence crashes of yester year that were fatal or now survivable.

Well it was a simplified analogy, of course, and you hit upon the inherent contradiction in having a stiff chassis yet having areas meant to fail to dissipate crash energy. Of course I'm talking about the latter and not the former.

What you are left with is more damage to impart less force to the occupants. Bottom line is a newer car gets smashed up more than an older car (generally speaking) in a similar accident, yet the newer car can be as safe or safer.

BTW the added weight does not usually come from the chassis; newer chassis are often stiffer but lighter. The difference is made up in appointments such as sound dampening, cushioning and extra weather sealing ... making for a more buttoned-down, quieter, smoother car.

onto to topic.. what no one seems to realize is that in retro spec the frame bending turns out to be better than it staying stiff in the same circumstances that caused the bend. on the other side of it with the exception of the UL frame none of these frames have obvious weak points and all of them hold up well enough for normal use.

on top of that is thickness that you can make a frame and still have room for the board and a battery. the plain fact is that the guns pictured should not need to be designed to hold up against these types of accidents and all of these omg complaints need to just stop!

Again in a twisting situation the weakest point will break.. which would you prefer a bent frame or a cracked pressurized cylinder that just so happens to be next to your head or facing your shoulder!

wtf happened to looking at pictures like that and just going ouch! whys this have to be a my marker wouldnt bend like that conversation?

Amen to that!

[Hilltop Customs]

bottom line is you hit something hard enough it will break.

Calling a marker overmilled based on a rare occurance where a player falls ontop of their marker and applies a large torque at the right angle to twist the frame is just ignorant. I think its BS that they say they "designed" it that way. More like they knew it was the part most likely to fail, but its much better to say they designed it to fail. They are a smart company, they realize that replacing a frame only costs them ~20 bucks(idk their cost, but its probably less than that....dont forget they just made ~900 bucks or more selling this gun to you) They also get a huge reputation boost....along with free advertising "hey look my guns busted, but the company replaced the frame for free! You should buy a marker just like mine" Dont get me wrong I think it is great the company behind the marker is willing to replace parts for free, but dont be confused and think they are a "good hearted" company...they just realize replacing a few parts for people makes them more money in the end.


And for what I really wanted to say, before I went off onto a tangent: Any person with half a brain shouldnt expect a grip frame that is composed of such a small cross section to hold up to large torques, or forces in general. Thats like thinking its possible for a person to climb up a tree thats 1 inch around.

edit: I hope that is coherant(spelling?) cant sleep at its now 6am here.

[Indignant]

hey man, if it isn't a tube on a block of metal it's overmilled, alright?

[SR_matt]

i think a) it was milled 2 much, b)the guy didnt pay attention to what he was doing c) the guy beat the heck out of that gun

maybe its because i do photography but im very used to the "save the equipment save the equipment" when im coming close to ground or other bad things. i rarely if ever go flat on my chest any way when i slide (i normally do baseball slides) but if i do i keep my gun up and only let the tank contact the ground more so as a slide than as a bump

ive heard of this stuff happening but i think it is as much abuse as it is manufacturing issues. these are paintball markers designed to shoot little balls of paint and other people in a game for fun these are not firearms designed to be put through hell and back in life and death situations. now should that make these this weak, no, but when it is put into its position these things are not thought of as things that need to go through such extremes.

i am some where in between on this subject when it gets down to it. from my growing knowledge of metals a lot of this can be prevented by properly working and treating the metals which would require slightly more attention and better designs. but i think this is what the people calling for lighter, smaller, faster need to have happen to them because people need to see the line at which usability fails. dont get me wrong i want a small light marker that is sturdy, works well and can put out like the best of them but i also know there is a line which i cant cross with out blowing the big bucks to get the marker made for crazy materials.

-matt

[drg]

I honestly don't know why Eclipse is suddenly being targeted with some kind of campaign alleging shoddy manufacturing and materials. Eclipse manufacturing has always been among the best in paintball.

[jackwood]

Can I comment?

I have posted on this subject several times on PBN but never here, but as you guys are paying it some attention I suppose I may as well have a go at explaining things here too.

The year before last we made a conscious decision as a company to take a look at the dovetail ASA/frame interface point. Through 05 and 06 we had a lot of incidents of people tearing the ASA off the dovetail mount during "accidents" (usually occurring during diving manoeuvres!). This destroyed the frame interface and the ASA and we ended up replacing 2 parts for people, the frame and the ASA. On top of that we had several cases of the hosing pulling out of the fittings after such an incident and the tank/hose flying around.

When we started to look at this when we started on the 07 design we decided that what we felt was best for us, and best from a safety point of view, was to have one sacrificial part, but have it so that that one part kept the tank and the gun body/grip together.

Without adding another "crumple" part between the frame and the ASA, this is what we thought offered the best compromise. The down side is that if you have a crash as bad as this one it will obviously damage the board too, but we feel that the quantities are so low of this type of incident that it warrants the risk.

Yes we do warrant this type of damage. Don't ask me why, but we do. We know people don't do this type of thing on purpose (most of the time!) and that 9/10 it is pure accident or mis-fortune that causes this type of bend.

Yes the gun is light. Yes the frame is milled light. Yes it aluminium. But at the end of the day, we would rather have someone bend a frame and us be able to say "here you go, lets fix that for you" rather than be looking at replacing a bent body, snapped FRM or In-Line reg or worse looking at some kid who just got all his teeth knocked out because he dove in the snake, spiked the barrel, snapped the tank off the ASA and it punched him in the mouth.

Jack

[SR_matt]

that is an interesting view, and understandable coming form the company

the fact that you cover it is very impressive and i do think states a lot about you as a company. but i still feel that light design changes or material changes will stop the whole issue all together.

may i ask what alloy is used on the egos?

i still give you props for covering it
-matt

[jackwood]

that is an interesting view, and understandable coming form the company

the fact that you cover it is very impressive and i do think states a lot about you as a company. but i still feel that light design changes or material changes will stop the whole issue all together.

may i ask what alloy is used on the egos?

i still give you props for covering it
-matt

6061-T6 exclusively for all parts bar some internal components that we prefer to use a 7000-series aluminium for (it is tougher but is no good for cosmetic anodising)

The point is: the load applied in this kind of incident is way more than 200lb. a 200lb guy, running and falling from 6' produces a force far in excess of the numbers that people are talking here. Under those loads, something has to give. Be it barrel-to-body interface, frame-to-body interface, ASA-to-frame interface, ASA-to-tank reg, tank-to-tank reg.

Something HAS to fail in this kind of collision. We just made a conscious decision to try and make it the frame, for the reasons outlined above.

Jack

[SR_matt]

k very cool, ya i am aware of the strength of that alloy.

i understand the logic here but i wonder why i dont hear about other guns having damage, maybe its because they bend something smaller, or do other damage that doesnt appear as bad as the bent frame

-matt