This is what happens when you pay 1600 for an overmilled amrker (taken from PBN)

[B-Pow]

6061-T6 exclusively for all parts bar some internal components that we prefer to use a 7000-series aluminium for (it is tougher but is no good for cosmetic anodising)

The point is: the load applied in this kind of incident is way more than 200lb. a 200lb guy, running and falling from 6' produces a force far in excess of the numbers that people are talking here. Under those loads, something has to give. Be it barrel-to-body interface, frame-to-body interface, ASA-to-frame interface, ASA-to-tank reg, tank-to-tank reg.

Something HAS to fail in this kind of collision. We just made a conscious decision to try and make it the frame, for the reasons outlined above.

Jack

I think the biggest thought on this side of the fence isn't that the frame bends during a crash. It's the whole chicken-or-the-egg debate of what came first; was the frame ACTUALLY designed to bend for saftey, or was it just an unintended feature due to the over-lightening of markers. Personally it looks a little more like the latter is true because of the other markers with bent frames pictured in the PBn thread.

Even if it is the latter, I don't much care...I just want to "applaud" your marketing department for turning a possible negitive into a positive.

Anything that makes the game safer is great in my book...I'm just very sceptical of if this was an intended feature or just something that started to show up due to the high levels of milling and efforts to make the lightest marker possible.

[paint magnet]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of force is required to seperate the tank from the reg? (Not talking about torque applied when tightening the reg onto the tank, but the force required for it to "snap").

Honestly though, it seems like anyone who would seriously injure themselves by planting their marker in the ground will probably later on do the same thing by falling on a peg from a bunker that's come unstaked or something.

*edit*

Also, I wonder how much thought is put into engineering paintball-specific cylinders. They are tested and rated to 5/3 capacity as far as pressure is concerned, but is anyone checking to make sure the reg doesn't break off at the neck? How much stress is applied to the tank during a normal day without the gun landing in the ground?

[jackwood]

B-Pow. Well, we don't have a marketing department, so your applause would be falling on deaf ears. As for your skeptisism, not much I can do about that I am afraid. But let me put it this way: we had frames bend in 07 on the standard gun and on the SL74 (there are pics posted out there from 07). Knowing this was the case, why would I have designed the standard 08 and SL8r in pretty much the exact same way, with that knowledge to hand? Well I wouldn't, would I, unless I had a good reason to carry on producing new product with the same design! Like it had been pointed out previously, adding strength with a couple of cross-members in the frame would be simple.

Paint magnet, there is no single figure. The type of metal used on the reg, the internal machining of the reg, any cross-drilled relief holes drilled in the neck of the reg, and most importantly the torque applied to the reg in fixing it to the tank will all have an affect on the ultimate failurer mode and load of the system. We have to assume worse-case-scenario when we decide what we want to do with our product. We shouldn't have to, but we do.

[trevorjk]

i must say, i absolutly love when owners and representatives from other companies come onto these boards and actually tell us the truth with out throwing complete BS at us.

Jack, like when you took care of PunknCat, and the honesty now. i have alot of respect for you and your company. just bring the price of the ego down about a grand so i can buy one

[B-Pow]

B-Pow. Well, we don't have a marketing department, so your applause would be falling on deaf ears. As for your skeptisism, not much I can do about that I am afraid. But let me put it this way: we had frames bend in 07 on the standard gun and on the SL74 (there are pics posted out there from 07). Knowing this was the case, why would I have designed the standard 08 and SL8r in pretty much the exact same way, with that knowledge to hand? Well I wouldn't, would I, unless I had a good reason to carry on producing new product with the same design! Like it had been pointed out previously, adding strength with a couple of cross-members in the frame would be simple.

I'm in no way trying to rip into you or your company, I was just looking for insight as to the development. Was this a R&D leap forward or an "oops" discovery.

Nothing against "oops" discoveries, if this is one, some of the worlds best inventions were accidents. I just prefer to be a well informed consumer, and if given the oppertunity to ask questions to the higher ups in a company I'm not going to pass it up.

[snoopay700]

i must say, i absolutly love when owners and representatives from other companies come onto these boards and actually tell us the truth with out throwing complete BS at us.

Jack, like when you took care of PunknCat, and the honesty now. i have alot of respect for you and your company. just bring the price of the ego down about a grand so i can buy one

That's pretty much my only beef with the company, the ego is worth a small fortune.

Is it bad that i would buy an xmag for only a few hundred less though?

[jackwood]

B-Pow, I understand completely what you are saying and to answer you honestly, the T-Rail design was implemented to make sure that the ASA never came detached from the frame. That was our primary concern. From that point the development moved to deciding what would be the weak link, and how we could ensure with most certainty that it could deform to accommodate a critical impact without the tank ever becoming separated (either at the tank end, or so that the hose becomes the only link between tank and gun) from the grip and body of the gun. We played around with a separate piece between the ASA and the bottom of the grip, but we could not make it a size such that it did not effect the aesthetics/feel of the gun and yet accommodate the full absorption of a major impact.
Add into that we need to sacrifice the lowest cost item. The body is the most expensive item in the gun by several orders of magnitude, so me wanted to make sure that that NEVER got damaged (see some of the early SL66 egos that got crashed like this one here and you will see the body is warped and cannot be salvaged, meaning several hundred dollars at cost in the trash can right there).

That left just the frame to work with.

Now I am not vain enough to say that I got the Factor of Safety (FOS) in the frame 100% correct. Maybe it could be stronger and still be the critical fail point? But, as a company we are 100% happy with the results that the design delivers. We have had players come to us with smashed out teeth, broken ribs, broken collar bones, dislocated shoulders, all from bad dives. We are confident that with a different design those players could be looking at much more serious injuries from the gun, tank or worse. A new frame, maybe (in very rare occasions) a new board, and the gun is up and running at zero cost to the customer and a manageable cost to us.

[SCpoloRicker]

Well, we don't have a marketing department, so your applause would be falling on deaf ears.

Erm... Yes, you do.

Anyways, I would like to comment that it is great to see a high level rep from a manufacturer come to the boards to answer questions.

[Hilltop Customs]

wow jackwood, it is nice to see a represenative for a company that can make explainations and arguments(when needed) for their products that actually make sense.

you wouldnt happen to have any pics of the T rail would you? I've never seen one be4.

[jackwood]

Erm... Yes, you do.

Erm, no we don't. If you could give me the names of the people that work in this mythical department I will attempt to track them down on Monday morning and ask them what they're playing at

Honestly, we have 2 people that do the graphical design, one of which also does all of our on-line content, and then everything else is just decided on an ad hoc basis. There is nobody that is "in charge" of marketing at PE. We all just contribute when and where neccessary in the area that each person is knowledgable in. We don't employ any marketing companies or have a marketing executive, or Brand Manager or whatever other name you want to call these people.

You know those 100,000 sqft glossy buildings you see Dye and SP in? That is just SO not us To start with, 100,000 sqft of building in the UK would cost you more than Buckingham Palace! No, we are defo the low rent cousins in this business

Jack

[jackwood]

you wouldnt happen to have any pics of the T rail would you? I've never seen one be4.

http://www.planeteclipse.com/ego8/ then click on Specifications at the top and you can zoom in on the T-rail.

Jack

[turbo chicken]

My 'Mag frame can pick up a car....

yeah... a carbon fiber frame... at that

[B-Pow]

B-Pow, I understand completely what you are saying and to answer you honestly, the T-Rail design was implemented to make sure that the ASA never came detached from the frame. That was our primary concern. From that point the development moved to deciding what would be the weak link, and how we could ensure with most certainty that it could deform to accommodate a critical impact without the tank ever becoming separated (either at the tank end, or so that the hose becomes the only link between tank and gun) from the grip and body of the gun. We played around with a separate piece between the ASA and the bottom of the grip, but we could not make it a size such that it did not effect the aesthetics/feel of the gun and yet accommodate the full absorption of a major impact.
Add into that we need to sacrifice the lowest cost item. The body is the most expensive item in the gun by several orders of magnitude, so me wanted to make sure that that NEVER got damaged (see some of the early SL66 egos that got crashed like this one here and you will see the body is warped and cannot be salvaged, meaning several hundred dollars at cost in the trash can right there).

That left just the frame to work with.

Now I am not vain enough to say that I got the Factor of Safety (FOS) in the frame 100% correct. Maybe it could be stronger and still be the critical fail point? But, as a company we are 100% happy with the results that the design delivers. We have had players come to us with smashed out teeth, broken ribs, broken collar bones, dislocated shoulders, all from bad dives. We are confident that with a different design those players could be looking at much more serious injuries from the gun, tank or worse. A new frame, maybe (in very rare occasions) a new board, and the gun is up and running at zero cost to the customer and a manageable cost to us.

Fair enough, I like your explinations and your ability to come on to the forums and answer pointed questions without insulting potential customers. Unlike that Gardener fiasco a few months ago on PBn (I usually don't go there, but when a high level rep is paying attention...that's an oppertunity to ask some real questions to the people who could/should be able to answer them).

I do give you a lot of repsect for backing up your products (I've heard great things about your customer service) and your willingness to have discussions with your market.

When I do decide to get a newer electro I'll put the ego and etec on my list of things to consider.

[jackwood]

Well, to be honest, I don't understand why more people like myself in the industry don't like to converse with people like yourself. I mean, as long as the conversation is respectful and semi-intelligent, then why not? I just have a bee in my bonnet about how people sometimes portrays PE as this massive, multinational, mega-corp, and people believe it and then ride us and brand us as evil pigs. It's just rubbish. The company started 15 years ago with 3 people. The 2 owners and me. We were all kids and paintballers, and still are, at heart. Walk into our place, you get a cup of coffee with stale milk in a chipped mug and you won't find a single person in a shirt, let alone a tie. We do what we do because 1) we enjoy what we do and 2) don't know anything else.

I've always been very open and honest about why I design things the way I do. I don't feel I have anything to hide. When a product is out in the open market there are no secrets any more. I'll defend my decisions, like any designer would. But if someone can put up a strong case about something, I'll change it. It's happened many times, and I believe the product is stronger for that.

If you can get hold of me, I don't mind answering questions about pretty much anything. Unfortunately in this day and age (how old does that make me sound ) people are too lazy to do their own research and would rather just hear the things they want to hear and more often than not jump to the wrong conclusion. At least here you guys appear (for now) to give me your ear whilst I explain the way I see and do things, and then of course I expect you to go and make your own minds up on a situation. So thanks for that opportunity. It's a privilage I will try very hard not to abuse. Cheers.

[questionful]

Why have a marketing department when he apparently has a marketing hat? I want an ego now!