Dry Fire Efficiency Test

[cockerpunk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSf_sdNygHM

[brycelarson]

link to data

fun little test - hope it's helpful.

[GoatBoy]

Nice, thanks for doing one using the e-mag and level 10. Also, neat use of Google Docs.



A note on measurements... There might be an alternative way to measure the air consumption without the need for an expensive, large gauge -- weigh the tank (tare it all with the gun included perhaps). This might actually be even more accurate than what you're currently using, especially with a digital scale set to grams or less.

[sffudapparel]

Cp and bryce - I hate you both.

I'm trying to study for my exam tomorrow and you post a new video so of course I had to check out the whole series of the old guns while I was at it. It's now 1:32am and I'm not even half way through the chapters i need.

Keep up the good work fellas. I really enjoy it. And cockerpunk, thanks for turning the light on on the emag vid I love that blue - wine anno

[jackwood]

Very interesting.

So now that it has shown that dry firing cannot replicate real firing with all types of guns, is that the end of this test?

Are you going to conclude that because that Ion gave identical figures with and without paint that an all Ions set up in any configuration will always give that same result, or are you going to alter some parameters (Dwell) to see if the same holds true for other set ups?

[brycelarson]

Very interesting.

So now that it has shown that dry firing cannot replicate real firing with all types of guns, is that the end of this test?

Are you going to conclude that because that Ion gave identical figures with and without paint that an all Ions set up in any configuration will always give that same result, or are you going to alter some parameters (Dwell) to see if the same holds true for other set ups?

My thought would be that the bolt design may do more than the dwell. This ION has only external upgrades. Stock bolt, un-altered factory settings on the electronics - the only thing I've done to it was a new trigger and clamping feed neck.

We have not talked about future testing. Our rig is really easy to replicate - It may be easier to ask other people to test their marker - rather than us trying to create multiple configurations of our markers.

Just looking at the mag for example covering the bases would require us to to a classic valve, RT valve, X valve then do all of those in combination with the level 7 and the level 10 to test most common permutations. The Ion would be nearly limitless with the bolt and dwell settings available.

[jackwood]

Could I suggest that you try the Ion with, say a 4ms increase in the dwell?

My thought is that the dwell setting that you have the gun set to is virtually "perfect" or even slightly under-dwelled.

In the "perfect" state, the dwell is expiring and the pneumatic system swtiching at exactly the same moment that blow-back is occuring. Thus with or without paint the readings would be the same.

In an "Under-dwelled" state, the controlling factor of the bolt retraction/dump-chamber evacuation period/level is soley the dwell. Increasing the dwell should yield a noticable increase in velocity.

The 4ms is just a plucked-from-the-air nominal figure that should tell you whether a) the Ion was operating in one of the above conditions (but not which one) or b) the Ion really does function as shown with the first data set.

Jack

[Hilltop Customs]

I'm missing what your trying to disprove or prove here......

disprove that dryfiring uses the same amt of air as firing w balls?
prove that there is a high variability between markers when it comes to the efficiency w ball and w/o ball?

oh and your graph is labeled wrong in your data sheet. "% of dry fire shots when shooting paint" should be something like "ratio of loaded vs unloaded shots using equivalent amounts of compressed air"

The question mike posed was basically "if a marker is chronoed @ 300fps, and you shoot a string of air @ 13bps for 100 seconds, is it possible to say the marker is possible of getting 1300 shots per tank?"

Only way this could be wrong is if firing a paintball forces the marker to use more gas than dry firing....which is not possible in these markers(and also shown in your data), so simple answer is "if you get 100 seconds of dryfire @ 13cps with absolutely no change to the marker after chronoing, then yes the marker should be capable of 1300ball per fill."

One catch though, some markers still fully cycle well under the pressure they require to fire a ball @ 300fps, simple solution is at the end of the 100seconds, drop a ball in the breech and fire it over the chrono and see if it is @300fps.

Another catch is if a marker doesnt fully recharge at 13cps, therefore using less gas at a higher ROF, in which case you could get more cycles than spaced out single shots.

no ball in the barrel=less restriction of gas flow out the barrel=more efficient emptying of the dump chamber=more gas used per shot

the ion is just a freak. It would be interesting to see what an increase in input pressure and and lowering of the dwell would do there. I would think it would make the ratio increase over 100% since you are cutting the supply off quicker.....might be a problem getting up to 300 fps though.

[cockerpunk]

thanks for the input jack!

my data, and what you and i have been talking about over on PBN seems to corilate well.

[Hilltop Customs]

how is it equivalent amounts of air?

clearly its not the equivalent amounts of air..

I thought you were counting shots from 2000psi down to 1000 psi......if so, the number of shots are varying not the amt of air.

edit: i'm not saying theres anything wrong with the data, graph or any of your research.....its just not an appropriate label

PS: I love what you guys doing here. Cant wait to see the break test.

[brycelarson]

Sure, the semantics of the title of the graph may not be perfect - but I think it communicates what we're trying to display. Maybe the title should read:

"number of cycles with paint devided by number of cycles without paint displayed as a percentage"

We tested to see if a gun cycling with paint could acheive the same number of cycles with a given volume of air as the same gun cycling without paint. That's what we were testing - which is actually what Mike was asking.

There are always other factors we don't include in a test (shootdown, reg recharge rate etc). There will always be factors that we choose not to incorporate and factors that we cannot incorporate. We choos the factors that we think have the highest impact on the results and then control for those. In this case that was starting and ending pressure, starting temperature, and velocity of the paintball. Those factors give us an accurate picture of how each gun performs with and without paint.

thanks for the encouraging words - we'll keep trying, and please, any suggestions are great - keep making them. Whatever we can do to improve these tests - we're willing to consider.

[dark blade]

i think what cocker punk meant is that there was varying amounts of air used in each shot when comparing dry cycles to paint cycles. not the total amount of air because yes they were doing the test with 1000 psi as a set destination for the tank

[Hilltop Customs]

Bryce I understand completely where you are coming from, there are a lot of variables, and limiting them is very difficult. I was impressed you even used water to negate the temp change off filling and emptying the tanks.

The only thing I'm trying to get at by mentioning that title of the chart is: The title of a chart should be self explanatory, anyone should be able to read the title and know exactly what they are looking at. "% dry fire shots while shooting paint" is not a good title because it is broad(no mention of same amt of gas) and confusing(dry firing while shooting paint?). Now thats not to say it is not understandable, I could understand the title after looking at the included data, but that is not why a chart is there, it is to simplify for easier understanding by the audience(ie audience does not need to look at the included data to understand the conclusion).

I know you guys dont care about being professional, but the change of those few words would make your presentation of data so much more effective. I'm just trying to help you.

edit: that last part about not caring about being professional wasnt a knock on you....i understand why it's not high on your list, because your audience doesnt care if you act highly professional. I dont want you to think i'm trying to put you down in any way, but the one great thing about presenting in a professional manner, many times it is the most effective means of presenting something(even to an unprofessional audience)

[jackwood]

thanks for the input jack!

my data, and what you and i have been talking about over on PBN seems to corilate well.

Yay, I'm not a complete idiot!!

[cockerpunk]

Yay, I'm not a complete idiot!!

i personally found the autococker to be the most interesting gun we shot.

have you ever tested a cocker on your little rig? if you dont want to make it public, toss me a PM.



also, thanks, i edited my post becuase i realized i was misunderstanding what hilltop was saying. we are all on the same page now ... i think.