Question about SP patents

[snoopay700]

This isn't a hate SP thread, just legitimately looking for answers to my questions by those that know more about legal matters. Now then, i heard that all companies that have an electronic gun pay royalties to them, even ones that use a pancake noid like spyders, so i was wondering how much per gun is the norm if that is true. Also, i read this online: "Although the US Patent Office has since declared the mere application of electronics to a previous invention does not constitute sufficient innovation for a patent, the Smart Parts patent has held, and thus been a source of much disagreement in the paintball community." which was on wikipedia so i don't know if it's true, but if it is why are they able to keep the patent, is it because they had it before that went into action? Also, where is the existing artwork that predates the shocker showing that they weren't actually the first ones?

If anyone could answer my questions i'd be grateful.

[questionful]

I've heard it's $75/unit, plus a flat fee.

the mere application of electronics to a previous invention does not constitute sufficient innovation for a patent

I've never heard that before. But even if that is the case, according to your quote, that restriction only applies to new patents.

The arguable prior art is, AFAIK, the 50yr-old Navy thing, and the one of that dude who made an e-cocker. From what I've heard, people have tried to contact this dude but he won't do anything.

Good luck getting your hands on REAL information. I've been told your best bet is to search The Tinkerer's Guild, I forget what year and month, if you want I'll dig up the PM I got from some person on MCB.

[snoopay700]

I've heard it's $75/unit, plus a flat fee.

I've never heard that before. But even if that is the case, according to your quote, that restriction only applies to new patents.

The arguable prior art is, AFAIK, the 50yr-old Navy thing, and the one of that dude who made an e-cocker. From what I've heard, people have tried to contact this dude but he won't do anything.

Good luck getting your hands on REAL information. I've been told your best bet is to search The Tinkerer's Guild, I forget what year and month, if you want I'll dig up the PM I got from some person on MCB.

That would be helpful, wish that he would do something, otherwise i don't know if i can make my marker cheap enough if i even do get to the point where i can sell it...

[BigEvil]

You do know that TK and Forrest Hatcher of PTP share a patent for paintball gun electronics?

Emag patent

[Beemer]

You do know that TK and Forrest Hatcher of PTP share a patent for paintball gun electronics?

Emag patent

Nice what about the HES?

[snoopay700]

You do know that TK and Forrest Hatcher of PTP share a patent for paintball gun electronics?

Emag patent

No i did not. Well if i were to use a standard pancake noid would i have to pay royalties? I've always never been too clear on what was included in that SP patent. I mean mine could easily be made so that i don't use a standard noid and need a custom one, but then it may fall under Tom's. See, it's all the legal stuff that i don't really know about, like what falls under what.

[questionful]

I'm pretty sure you're just screwed. Either make it mechanical, or pay SP. It sucks.

Here's the PM I got, regarding this thread:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/n...rts-sorry.html

These threads always get closed, so it's pretty hard to find facts. Especially now that time has passed and a lot of the forums and websites where this was discussed are gone or pages deleted. The pages that do exist don't come up on seach engines or forum searches.

I didn't see the thread until after it closed. Not sure if you have read this already, but here's a link to some of the info that was known to the public.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/...5/SP+Suit+FAQ-

The tinkers guild is the only forum that I know of where this type of info is relatively easy(but time consuming) to find. You just poke around about the time it happened. SP had thier patent granted around the end of 2002, and things snowballed around late spring/early summer of 2003. I remember reading some stuff about the SP/PVI thing. There is no good way of searching that forum other than going through all the threads around the time this info started coming out. Click the link below and browse around for anything SP related. You'll find some good info.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/page-400

[BigEvil]

No i did not. Well if i were to use a standard pancake noid would i have to pay royalties? I've always never been too clear on what was included in that SP patent. I mean mine could easily be made so that i don't use a standard noid and need a custom one, but then it may fall under Tom's. See, it's all the legal stuff that i don't really know about, like what falls under what.

What is interesting, is that TK and PTP seem to hold a patent on electro sear trippers. Hmmm... might be considered different than an electro pneumatic system...

[snoopay700]

What is interesting, is that TK and PTP seem to hold a patent on electro sear trippers. Hmmm... might be considered different than an electro pneumatic system...

Then why do sear trippers like spyders have to pay? and mine wouldn't be tripping a sear, but it would be using a noid like the emag sort of, not one of the pneumatic noids.

[Abizdafuzz]

I believe the emag is a electro/mech sear tripper.

[y0da900]

There is definitely a lot of good information on the Tinker's Guild about it, the real shame is that the search feature over there has been broken for months, you all but need to use google to search it.


"search terms" site:http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/

If you enter that at google, you can use it to search there with whatever you are looking for as the "search terms".

Interesting "prior art".

Electropneumatic gun from the 80's.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=KWMsAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=4770153

Aforementioned Navy patent

http://haveblue.org/tech/patents/US003695246.pdf

Mentions in abstract the possibility of using electronic timing control, does not appear in the claims. But is still mentioned in a written, published, publicly available document as a possibility

http://www.google.com/patents?id=0sMgAAAAEBAJ&dq=electronic+pneumatic+gun

I thought there was a Tippmann patent for electronic sear trippers that I thought predated the SP patent, but I can't seem to find it now.

[snoopay700]

Hmm, and these have already been submitted as previous artwork? Looks like i've got some research to do because i really can't see selling my markers if i have to pay a royalty to them, and i would love to be able to start my own business.

[eXo_oUtSiDeR]

I think the reason pancake noids are covered by the patent is because of the switch. Both the switch that turns the board on, which AGD circumvented by using the yellow pin on the battery, and the switch activated by the trigger. Something like that. Anyway, the reason I say you're pretty much screwed is because people have tried to find a loophole in the issue for a long time, with much effort, and failed. Tom said he knew for a fact that ICD payed over 500k in legal fees fighting SP in court, only to end up settling/licensing or something (I'm not too good with legal terms ).

Have things changed since then? Is it possible to find a way around SP's patents and make an electro without paying them anything? I wouldn't even know how to go about answering that question with a yes or no, let alone figuring out how. Now, if only we hadn't scared away that one guy who said he was studying law. . .

Good luck with whatever you decide to try.

Oops, my friend is still logged in on my computer, this is questionful.

[snoopay700]

I think the reason pancake noids are covered by the patent is because of the switch. Both the switch that turns the board on, which AGD circumvented by using the yellow pin on the battery, and the switch activated by the trigger. Something like that. Anyway, the reason I say you're pretty much screwed is because people have tried to find a loophole in the issue for a long time, with much effort, and failed. Tom said he knew for a fact that ICD payed over 500k in legal fees fighting SP in court, only to end up settling/licensing or something (I'm not too good with legal terms ).

Have things changed since then? Is it possible to find a way around SP's patents and make an electro without paying them anything? I wouldn't even know how to go about answering that question with a yes or no, let alone figuring out how. Now, if only we hadn't scared away that one guy who said he was studying law. . .

Good luck with whatever you decide to try.

Oops, my friend is still logged in on my computer, this is questionful.

I doubt he was really studying law. Anyway, i dunno, i'll check it out and hope i can find some way around it.

[custar]

SP claims that by it's copyright enlargement, the patent covers electronic activation of a paintball marker, not just the microswitch per se. The validity of the enlargement has never been legally tested. The closest was the recent case SP filed against KEE involving the Mini, Scepter barrel system, etc. At this point, all major companies (except possibly Tippmann) have decided it is less expensive to pay the Danegeld than to pay for litigation. I have not been able to find a solid answer of whether Tippmann has a deal with SP or not. IMHO, the best bases for challenging the SP "326" patent are the Navy's prior patent, Edelman's prior patent, and the general invalidity of the enlargement to include non-patentable matters, specifically the electronic activation of a paintball marker.

I have asked SP representatives several times how much they demanded of AKA, but I never asked about other companies. No one from SP has given me an answer, leading me to conjecture it is higher than they would like the public to know. As noted above, there is both the per unit fee and a general licensing fee. Again, SP representatives have declined to disclose the licensing fee.

The shape and/or location of the solenoid doesn't matter. If SP is correct in their interpretation of the 326 patent, a solenoid is not central to their patent; any electronic activation of a paintball marker--solenoid driven or otherwise--would be an infringement. BTW, as I read SP's interpretations of the 326 patent, they claim the patent also covers the use of a board in the marker Angel's patent only arguably covers making the board programmable.

custar