Need design feedback

[cougar20th]

Looking for feedback from people. On my designs. Honest feedback. Ill listen to anything short of "looks like dog****"

I know ripper was somewhat extreme by many standards. http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=218550
Phoenix was much simpler look, more open space. http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=228686
Shockwave somewhat more complex design but flows thruout. http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=238546

With all the other bodies arriving RPG, PTP & Mongoose's designs. They are both far less sculpted & simpler looking designs than anything Ive done.

Ive been kind of confused alot of people wanted new bodies & alot of people wanted a new unibody. We made a unibody to fill that want & help with cost at the same time. Everyone wanted a cheaper body. We found ways to cut costs. But once they are released there seems to be little interest all of a sudden when its time to sell.

Is the market looking for simpler?
It the market looking for more styled/sculpted stuff?
Is the market just saturated with choices?
Is the market just plain dead due to outside circumstances?


Final note: I mean no bad feelings against the RPG, Mongoose & PTP bodies. Just using them as a example. I think its great there are new choices even if they arent my designs since everyone like something different.

[BigEvil]

Hey Cougar, I hate to say it, but the market doesnt know what it wants

[malJohann]

..Is the market looking...

..for AGD to be bought by someone with interest to grow it into a large company? That, my friend, is the REAL rhetorical question. The rest is just interesting, nice to have and may or may not be bought by a couple of enthusiasts.

[teufelhunden]

Everybody likes something until they have to pay for it. They would also buy two, until they have to pay for it. I think you're just getting stuck in the same hole as most of the other dealers around here with respect to the "customers." That (I would assume) is why a lot of these guys have went to money-up-front preorders and that's that (plus whatever it takes to get to a round batch, I suppose).

Further, the market as a whole is probably listening to too much MSM and getting the doom and gloom report despite what's actually happening in their lives and determining that most of the aftermarket bodies provide no increase in functionality at all and just look nice off the field. For the people here who still play (which I feel like is fewer and fewer people, a lot of people here act and talk like they just collect the guns, though in full disclosure I haven't played in... wow, like 4+ years-- but no guns except for some random crap that's been sitting in my attic since ), that probably doesn't matter as much, especially when in fact or in assumption the players disposable income is drying up. So it would be better served going to a few cases of paint than to a body that does what their existing body does.

That, and you're trying to sell to an exceptionally tiny market with almost zero growth potential -- in fact, it's probably contracting faster than people realize. Same amount of Mags around, but fewer owners it would seem.

[XM15]

I made a custom body for myself. I just sent it off to the Fool for anodizing. Its a SFL inspired unibody. I personally don't like the flowing curves and organic look bodies they are every where so I made my own.

[TwilightG]

Is the market just plain dead due to outside circumstances?

Look in the B/S/T... everyone is selling, no one is buying
Not to mention that it's still winter right now... a lot of us just aren't playing paintball atm. Although I personally love to work on projects right now since it means downtime for my markers, it's hard to justify spending money on something you're not using.

Hey Cougar, I hate to say it, but the market doesnt know what it wants

This is also a key point. I think as Mag owners, we love almost anything new to the scene but when it comes time to buying... well, not so sure

[Spider-TW]

One thing that might help would be to sell some fully finished bodies. That's the only complaint I've heard about your bodies that made any sense to me. When people realize that their body will need polishing and/or blasting and then anodizing, their custom marker cost and time go way up. When I considered a shockwave body, I was prepared to polish it by hand. I figured that I could make it look very nice, but then the idea of sending it out to be anodized and matching up the rest of the marker was too much for what I wanted.

There is the money thing. Personally, some of the money I imagined I had earlier in the year thinned out substantially. Tax time is a great time to have something on hand to sell so that people can use that money, but you have to get it fast.

I don't see how you can sell a bunch of custom bodies. Yes, you should be able to sell a fair number, but at the extreme it is an oxymoron (bulk built / custom). You are by definition playing against individual preferences and there isn't that much of 'what the market wants' involved.

The deadly wind bodies seem to be the peak product delivered at the best time period. Personally, I never thought much of dallara bodies, but liked the karta and chord.

I think a lot of the previewing and fishing for opinions with solid models actually gives people time to consider what they want versus what they need. A lot of us have projects floating around in the back of our heads and if you ask if we are interested in something, the answer is 'yes'. With enough time, people figure out that they will need several new parts and anodizing to put everything together. I understand you can't just throw out a product without some expectation that it will sell; however, an extended period of 'coming soon' without much of 'look what I made' is a bit of a downer. As long as the ripper and phoenix bodies have been out, I'm starting to see more than one or two nice projects come out with them. When I see those, I think 'that's what it was supposed to look like'.

[chafnerjr]

Honestly... he's right, at least in part. You'll see a thread going about: interest in something and 500 posts later only 7 people are willing to jump in (with the exception of the PTP body). As for outside influences? OK the economy is a little rough but not quite as bad as the gov wants you to think. (Sorry if someone reading this lost their job). in any event things will swing back around and money will be pouring in again. I personally have to buy a phoenix coming up in a week or so (tax time) to build my wife a new marker. She also likes the new unibody that you made...

As for a personal taste? I really dug the phoenix and shockwave, but not the ripper. I like flowing curves but to each their own right? I also have never liked the feedneck that was pictured with the phoenix in your post... but once again just personal taste. It wouldn't stop me from buying one as I'd just put a CCM or no-rise on it. I really dug the shockwave, but not how it envelops the valve on the right hand side... I think I'd like it better if it was cut out a little more (i.e. xmag or dallara style). With that said I'd still buy a shockwave if I needed another interesting body.

I think that we're just getting a new swing of bodies like we did a few years ago. People are still rocking the Karta's and at least dallara rails. Is there a lack of sales/interest that your seeing? Obviously I don't get to see things from your end.

Now, I would love to see a new MM length body that wasn't like the PTP micro... I personally don't care about the breach being anything other than vertical and I don't like the gap under it... not sure why, but I just don't. That's not to say that it isn't high quality... just not sexy enough for me.




On a side note I can't believe how many people send phoenix bodies to anno without having them polished first.

[BigEvil]

On a side note I can't believe how many people send phoenix bodies to anno without having them polished first.

Well, a good annoer can and should be able to handle that better than most average joes can.

[pk5]

I made a custom body for myself. I just sent it off to the Fool for anodizing. Its a SFL inspired unibody. I personally don't like the flowing curves and organic look bodies they are every where so I made my own.

Heyy no fair, that is my project too :-P, except mine is going to use the PTP body.


As for OP, the amount of work for these body just seem to high and not only that, lately there have been a huge influx of custom bodies on the market. These bodies doesn't have any new inspiring design (except the ptp one that dend78 dream up), and they cost a bit more than what some people are willing to invest ( bad term...but oh well).

Let say the phoenix body, those who want one already bought one, so now that there is another design that is similar to that, i.e. the fluid body, there isn't any need for another curvey organic look body on the market at all. The Karta and similar deadly wind body are still around, but if you look on the BST they are not really selling, not for the price that the seller is asking for anyway.

In conclusion: Too many choices for body, the people that are willing to invest in a new mag has already done so, unless there is some new inspiring deal, there wouldn't be any interested in the market. You can only afford to build so many 500 dollars + marker per year.

[cougar20th]

Everybody likes something until they have to pay for it. They would also buy two, until they have to pay for it. I think you're just getting stuck in the same hole as most of the other dealers around here with respect to the "customers." That (I would assume) is why a lot of these guys have went to money-up-front preorders and that's that (plus whatever it takes to get to a round batch, I suppose).

I am starting to think this is some of the problem. I see the response then am disapointed when nothing comes of it.

I made a custom body for myself. I just sent it off to the Fool for anodizing. Its a SFL inspired unibody. I personally don't like the flowing curves and organic look bodies they are every where so I made my own.

Really cool. Any pics.

One thing that might help would be to sell some fully finished bodies. That's the only complaint I've heard about your bodies that made any sense to me. When people realize that their body will need polishing and/or blasting and then anodizing, their custom marker cost and time go way up. When I considered a shockwave body, I was prepared to polish it by hand. I figured that I could make it look very nice, but then the idea of sending it out to be anodized and matching up the rest of the marker was too much for what I wanted.

; however, an extended period of 'coming soon' without much of 'look what I made' is a bit of a downer. As long as the ripper and phoenix bodies have been out, I'm starting to see more than one or two nice projects come out with them. When I see those, I think 'that's what it was supposed to look like'.

I understand the polished/anodied dilema. The simple answer is while it would be more finished it would also make the finished product more expensive. Ano I feel is a purely user preferance.

I do agree the comming soon is a downer. This is why we tryed to make a prototype to show the real think.

I also have never liked the feedneck that was pictured with the phoenix in your post... but once again just personal taste. It wouldn't stop me from buying one as I'd just put a CCM or no-rise on it. I really dug the shockwave, but not how it envelops the valve on the right hand side...

Now, I would love to see a new MM length body

I know for fact the parts Jay adds on the prototypes are spare parts he has laying around.

The next designs I do will have cuts for both side valves. The shockwave was only cut on one side because it killed the flow of the design otherwise.

I can look into a mm length setup

[trevorjk]

the pheonix, IMO looks terrible from the side but decent from looking at a birds eye. the shockwave is a step in the right direction (unibody) but isnt all that appealing to me. the ripper is your nicest work IMO but it should be redone in a unibody form for full affect.

but then again i look at everything cosmetic as if i am willing to put money down on it. and so far the ripper is the best chance my money has

[Ratt]

Honestly... he's right, at least in part. You'll see a thread going about: interest in something and 500 posts later only 7 people are willing to jump in (with the exception of the PTP body).

Maybe people are going about it the wrong way. Maybe someone needs to do some research, figure out what features the majority of people want in a body (without making a thread, taking a poll, etc.). Just dig through some of the past threads on here. Come up with a design...then build it. Do NOT let anyone know you are in the process of building a body. When the body is done, THEN make a thread and show everyone what you have. I realize there is a lot of risk in doing this, but there is risk in everything.
My 'logic' behind this is: I am a compulsive buyer. If I log onto AO, and all of a sudden there is a new body on the market, I am going to jump on it, thinking that if I don't get one before everyone else does, these bodies will go, and will never get one. I am sure there are plenty of AO'ers out there like me. I guess you could call it the 'element of surprise'-style marketing...
I am pretty sure there are a lot reason why this may not/would not work. But if the body is a high-quality, functional piece of work, people will buy it. I don't know...has anyone done this before? If so, did they sell their product? Or did the seller get stuck with a bunch of unsold product?
I think some/most of us agree that the 'hype' that preceeds the release of the product has a neutral or negative effect on the amount of product sold. Feel free to disagree with me and tell me how I am wrong...
If I had the money, tools, time...I would try this myself. Unfortunately, the U.S. Navy didn't issue me a CNC machine (or the time and knowledge to use it).

[DevilMan]

One of my issues that I have when wanting to get a new body, which I love the organic flow of your shockwave body is that in the end it's all just hobbled together with spare parts.

Not your body per say but the marker over all. Look at the "Nike Shoe" look that the markers of today have going for them. They are all flowing together. The lines go together from top to bottom. The asa the frame the feedneck for the most part.

Emag lowers don't match up to the lines of anything worth a crap. Neither do Intelli frames or Benchy's whether single or double trigger. Oh I know it'd be a NICEEEEEEEEE HIGGHHHH Dollar amount to get a fully milled out setup but that's my issue with them. Then you take all this and you stick a generic barrel on the end and it counter-acts all of the rest of the work.

I am also a person that does not like the hard angles and sharp lines like the Micro mags and SFL's. I'm like that when it comes to my real guns as well. Kimber does a thing called "dehorning" it's where they smooth off all of the edges and corners.

I'm in the process of doing that on my pump gun. Just because. I'm really thinking it's gonna look like a well polished turd when I get done, but what the hell right?

I think the economy has something to do with it as well, and sorry to disagree with the above post about it being down, but I am unemployed and the market and overall status is in the slums right now. Trust me. It's not just the gubmint saying it, but it is the gubmints fault for allowing all of the BS banking and lending and loan companies to do what they've been doing all of these years. It's a cycle. Things go up for awhile... then they come down. Well right now we are in a down stroke I think.

I want to pick up one of your unibody's but well as I said... it's still just put together with spare parts in the end.

That's my thoughts...

DM

[Ratt]

One of my issues that I have when wanting to get a new body, which I love the organic flow of your shockwave body is that in the end it's all just hobbled together with spare parts.

Not your body per say but the marker over all. Look at the "Nike Shoe" look that the markers of today have going for them. They are all flowing together. The lines go together from top to bottom. The asa the frame the feedneck for the most part.

Emag lowers don't match up to the lines of anything worth a crap. Neither do Intelli frames or Benchy's whether single or double trigger. Oh I know it'd be a NICEEEEEEEEE HIGGHHHH Dollar amount to get a fully milled out setup but that's my issue with them. Then you take all this and you stick a generic barrel on the end and it counter-acts all of the rest of the work.

I am also a person that does not like the hard angles and sharp lines like the Micro mags and SFL's. I'm like that when it comes to my real guns as well. Kimber does a thing called "dehorning" it's where they smooth off all of the edges and corners.

I'm in the process of doing that on my pump gun. Just because. I'm really thinking it's gonna look like a well polished turd when I get done, but what the hell right?

I think the economy has something to do with it as well, and sorry to disagree with the above post about it being down, but I am unemployed and the market and overall status is in the slums right now. Trust me. It's not just the gubmint saying it, but it is the gubmints fault for allowing all of the BS banking and lending and loan companies to do what they've been doing all of these years. It's a cycle. Things go up for awhile... then they come down. Well right now we are in a down stroke I think.

I want to pick up one of your unibody's but well as I said... it's still just put together with spare parts in the end.

That's my thoughts...

DM

Very good point. Someone needs to come out with the "whole package". Barrel, frame, body/rail...everything made together.