Intelli Z Grips

**FooTemps** · 02-23-2002, 01:49 AM

DUDE! NO! ZELDA DISSED ME AND HE DESERVES IT! YOU GET BEEF FROM FOO', YOU GET BEEF FROM AO!

now, onto another point. Completely true that Tom wanted to reassure himself that his y-grips would sell. Kinda ristky on his part but it's worth the risk to ensure sales man. I bet you would think the same if you really wanted the money on a new product which customers requested... Oh wait, you wouldn't make a new product just cuz your customer requested it....

**Cliffio** · 02-23-2002, 01:50 AM

AND CLIFFIO

**Army** · 02-23-2002, 03:21 AM

Please show where Mr. Kaye "threatens" anyone. Please show where Mr. Kaye forced anyone to but a Zgrip or else.

Here is what he says about the POSSIBLY forthcoming new version Zgrip:

Second, I am only going to sell them through our online store not through dealers because I don't want them calling me up and returning them because you all said you wanted them and then didn't buy. Right before we give the go ahead to machine them I will open the store for pre-orders. If we don't get enough we don't go into production.

Third, they are not going to be cheap! They will be at least 115 without grips. I have to make money on this because it could very well be a one time thing. If I don't sell them all I still have to at least break even.

The original run of Zgrips took YEARS to only sell around 200 units. Not exactly a profitable undertaking. For this reason, Mr. Kaye will not jump into production of a new product without any prior feed-back from players.

Tom, this is blackmail
Why would you threaten your customers to buy an inferior product like the old Z-grips(and buy them all immediately) or else you won't make a newer more improved Intelli Z-grip? It is not fair to put your customers in this type of position, since the people who buy the old Z-grips will be missing out. I bought the warp feed so that I can use an Intelli link to it, and have the comfort of a Z-grip at the same time. I was under the impression that you always wanted the best for your customers.

This post was inflammatory, insulting, and false. Mr. Kaye has not kept any secrets, tried to bamboozle, or trick anyone into buying an alledged inferior product. He has always been up-front in the planning of the new frame and indeed, of all the latest products from AGD. I asked that Zelda retract his statement, nothing more. Zelda is not challenging Tom, he is accusing. Zelda could not have pointed out the truth as you say, since he apparently did not know, nor try to find out, the existing circumstances. It would have been easy to, there is a search function accessed by the search button above.

For you to have the audacity and gall to equate me with; "the damn Gestapo of Nazi Germany" (your words), insults me greatly, and goes beyond reason and maturity. My Moderating powers have not one damn thing to do with my post, I asked him to retract his wrongful statement. I could have easily deleted this entire mess, but we don't do that here, we let fools such as yourself and Zelda to show themselves to the other members.

I, Sir, fully understand what this forum is about, and so does the owner and the Webmaster, for they appreciated my abilities and asked me to be a Mod. I did not campaign to be a Mod, none of us did. We were chosen for our maturity, common sense, knowledge of Automags and other AGD products, and our ability to know the difference between a Fascist, a Communist, and a privately operated and controlled forum.

In the future, I would appreciate if you choose your words more carefully, and only use those that you know the meanings of.

Dave

**MantisMag** · 02-23-2002, 10:59 AM

well mendel this is your first post here. maybe you don't know the history of the Z-grip. i've only been here for a few months so if i screw this up somebody correct me.

the z-grips came out a while back. army just pointed out that they took years to sell 200 units. now long after they are out of production everyone wants one. there have been numerous threads requesting them and asking how to get them. they have been told that the z-grips flopped and are no longer in production. still they cry for them. tom finally caves in. he wonders why the z-grips are so popular now when they initially flopped. still he makes the promise that army quoted here. extremely reasonable. he's putting a product up that he has determined there is a demand for by talking to people online. very risky business practice. obviously before he spends too much money he would want to be sure he will turn a profit. can't really criticize that.

however you seem to be referring to the thread where tk is announcing that there are a few z-grips in the store. in there he says "If you guys don't burn through them (about 12) don't expect Y grips in the future." ok so maybe this could be seen as a threat. can you blame him? the y-grip will be based on the z-grip. if he can't sell 12 z-grips when demand is supposedly so high then how is he going to sell the y-grip? if it's going to flop then why bother putting any more development time and money into it?

that's about as much of the back story as i know. i'm willing to give you and zelda the benefit of the doubt. maybe you didn't know. as such i can easily see how you would be upset by what tom said. if you did know all this then ... leave tom alone! he's only human. he worries about his business and all the crazies on AO are going to give him ulcers!

*edit* oh and the attack on army was completely unwarranted. i don't know where the hell you came up with that.

**personman** · 02-23-2002, 11:32 AM

I got this funy feeling thast mendel is zelda..

**bofh** · 02-23-2002, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by AGD
If you guys don't burn through them (about 12) don't expect Y grips in the future.

It's not a threat, it's market research.

Zelda was a tad out of touch with the "blackmail" charge. Tom said a simple, if you don't buy these, we won't make anymore. Normally, that's the unsaid rule in any business. Would any sane person make more of something that won't sell?

Mendel, you're also a bit off base with the "nazi" comparison of the Mods. Army didn't modify Zelda's post in the least. He told Zelda what he thought and asked him to retract it. Army, in the past has not shown any hestation is edited post that were offensive or against AO rules. Comparing Army to a brown shirt, is way over the line. And yet this thread won't get closed, or your post edited.

Furthermore, Tom Kaye gets plenty of grief and dissident from this forum. If it's wrong to be a yes man, meaning saying yes to a moderate, well reasoned man, who backs up his ideas with tested proof and solid theory. Then I don't wanna be right.

**Daniel Morse** · 02-23-2002, 12:45 PM

What the hell...

First of all I could not agree more with Zelda. Tom Kaye was totally out of line in his marketing approach. Along with the entire Crown Point Barrel posts, once again Tom is exploiting his power. Why would anyone buy an old Z-Grip found under some work bench without even being intelli retro fit. The only way I would buy one of these Z's is if Tom then gives me an intelli Z for free. I bought a Warp Feed once I heard the news of intelli Z's going to be produced. Why would I want something second rate. Get all of your noses out of Tom's a@# and try to realize this. Tom if you are that hungry for money maybe you should not make extremes until all E-mags are purchased. I think Foo and Army should have to buy all remaining E-Mags. And Foo, if only your wallet was as big as your post count. I just heard from other members that you don't even own a Mag. What do you contribute besides pissing everyone off? You sure don't contribute financially to AGD. I think its time you put your money where your mouth is.

**SlipknotX556** · 02-23-2002, 01:00 PM

i just think their is somethin with zelda..... Tom would never threatin us.

**Daniel Morse** · 02-23-2002, 01:14 PM

What in the blue hell...

just came out of your mouth. Somebody give this guy a hooked on phonics. Please show off your ignorance of the english language on another thread.

**Predater** · 02-23-2002, 01:30 PM

Daniel

First i cant spell but i do try (the spell check wont work)

Tom's so called threatining is because he is woried that if he spinds a fiew thousand dollars or more on new Z's that they wont sell. Remember when he first relesed them,I do, they didnt exactly sell well. He just wants to be reasured that if he makes them again that they will sell.

Army and foo have not and i repeat have not ben like nazzi dictators. If they had then they would have just deleated the uncalled for posts. But instead they asked him to retract it.

You can intellifeed any grip fraim if you are compotent enough to work a drill and soldering gun.

Tom has not even garanteed that a new griop will be made. So if you want a Z i advise buying one now and not waiting for somthing that isnt even a sure thing.

I do own a mag an rt and evry other AGD product i like. But i will tell Tom if there is somthing i dont like but i will never attack his integrity in the prosses. I am only a yess man if it is things i like not if i dont personaly agree.

While im at it why not a T grip. Like on an ozi. Sreight up and doun. That way you are more cumfortable when fireing and still cumfortable when running. I would buy one.

**MantisMag** · 02-23-2002, 01:32 PM

daniel:
exploiting his power? what did tom gain from the crown point barrel posts? he came clean on what was really going on the same day. anybody who ordered them got a phone call explaining what happened and asking if they wanted to cancel the order. if they still wanted it then they also received a free parts kit. i would love to be exploited like that.

i still don't understand why anybody would be upset with this.

why would someone buy the z-grip when the intelli-z is in the works? well because they want them now. the intelli-z is still a ways off. and why the hell are people still buying crown point barrels? cause they are part of agd history and some people want them just because of that.

money hungry? tom owns a business. he's not your friend who's showing you a cool mod you can do yourself. he's making a product. he owns a company. he NEEDS to make money. if he doesn't then you can say goodbye to any more products that might be in agd's future.

not making extremes until all the e-mags are sold? first of all extremes are already out there in europe. they just aren't being sold in the US yet except in the form of the SFL. so that was just a silly thing to say even without examining its merits as an argument. and even if this wasn't the case. the e-mags are doing well. the z-grips flopped. big difference in producing something based off the e-mag and something based off the z-grip. if you had the chance to produce a new version of the e-mag and a new version of the z-grip which would you put higher on your priority list?

as for foo this is an open forum. he does not have to contribute financially to agd to contribute to the forum. so he doesn't own a mag. we have quite a few members here who don't own mags. some of them even own cockers *gasp* or angels *shocking*. they still contribute to these forums. we're not the board of directors here. the worth of our opinions is not determined by how much agd stock we own.

why do people insist on telling me what i think? i'm part of everyone and foo does not piss me off. i really dislike blanket statements like that. especially when they don't even hold true for the majority. i think most people here find foo either amusing or annoying. i don't think he truly pisses off very many people. foo does not need to put his money where his mouth is. you need to put some thoughts behind your words.

**Miscue** · 02-23-2002, 01:33 PM

You people's reasoning is off by a mile. The funny thing is, because of this I can't even really explain to you why with any impact - so I'm probably wasting my time writing this - but I'll be optimistic. You're making something out of absolutely nothing. This is your position: "I'm right, you're all wrong." That's fine and all if you can successfully explain why. The problem with your explanations is that they really aren't very good... actually they are pretty bad. They all revert back to "I'm right and you're all wrong." That's a goofy reason... fallacy stacked upon fallacy.

You think TK is doing things to be mean? You think he get's a kick out of tricking people? Maybe he pushes old ladies into water puddles too? Spits on little kids maybe? That's absolutely ABSURD... it is completely RIDICULOUS for any of you to make claims like this. Did you ever think that he was making a very good point that could open up some eyes to things that weren't realized - the power of marketing and the need to be critical of it?

No, you didn't.

You're trying to make yourselves out to be victims, and just make stuff up along the way to make it sound like somebody did you harm. It's like you accuse the clouds of being out to get you because it rained.

He is BLACKMAILING you? What, he's got pics of you sneaking into the girl's bathroom and wants money to keep it quiet? That is a TOTALLY RIDICULOUS claim. Did you ever think that this newly found batch of Z-Grips would be a good test marketing indication of how the Y-Grips would do?

No, you didn't.

Why on earth would AGD spend time in a product that wouldn't sell? "Oh, it failed last time... test marketing shows it'll probably fail again. Hey! Let's do it anyway!!!"

Come on you guys. Quit going off of your initial reaction/emotions and really think about what's going on.

**Predater** · 02-23-2002, 01:47 PM

Miscue is exactly right. I agree totaly.

**tsc** · 02-23-2002, 02:08 PM

Morse, Mendel:

Who do you think you are?

Where do you get off accusing TK of blackmail, and one of the moderators of being a communist dictator?

Army doesn't hesitate to edit cussing out of posts. He was asked to be a moderator to do that. He edits people's posts for their spelling and readability. NEVER has he deleted a post to control the board. None of the mods have. You know why? So the people that posted them are known as idiots. Army simply asked Zelda to retract his statment, as I'm sure he would with a personal attack on any member.

Why would TK spend money on this forum (a large sum IIRC) only to DRIVE AWAY his customers?

TK is the only pres. of a paintball company that talks to his customers. Do you hear of Bud Orr starting a website where he talks to people? No. Maybe you will soon, thanks to TK's example. Superbolts: Do you think TK would have gotten feedback so quickly from people if this forum wasn't here? Yes, the BONESisaGOD situation was an unfortunat side effect. However, that was resolved without too much injury to either party (although I'm sure TK has a few more gray hairs). This is what he is doing. He is simply asking his customers whether or not the Z-grips will sell, then asking them to prove it. What he said is not a threat. He is telling you what will happen. If he said "Unless you burn through these grips, I'm going to stop any AGD provided maintenence", that would have been a threat. He didn't, did he?

I find it quite funny that you think your opinion matters. TK asks this forum for ideas quite alot. That's when they DO matter. Do you think if someone says "Mags are ugly, you should change them" that TK will do so? No, he won't. I'm sure Tom cares that a mag owner is dissatisfied with the product. However, I don't think he really cares if someone disagrees with his marketing tactics. I don't agree with KAPP and WDP's use of half naked girls in their ads. You don't see me writing emails asking that they stop, because they won't. If they get emails from EVERY SINGLE ONE of their customers, they'll change.

TK is testing the waters of the market. Get over it, and grow up.

*edited to add:*
Miscue-

Intelli Z Grips

Intelli Z Grips

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